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Christine Maggiore dies, but not of HIV

LA Times gives no cause of death, but HIV propagandists can’t wait

Bad luck for AIDS reformers, to add to other setbacks, though Christine’s heroism may yet prove out

Who’s bigger, Anthony Fauci or Bernie Madoff?

Christine Maggiore and Eliza JanePerhaps the best known public activist against the HIV-causes-AIDS premise in science and medicine, Christine Maggiore has unexpectedly died at 52, the Los Angeles Times reports in a blog today (Dec 30 Tuesday).

Christine Maggiore, vocal skeptic of AIDS research, dies at 52:

Until the end, Christine Maggiore remained defiant.

On national television and in a blistering book, she denounced research showing that HIV causes AIDS. She refused to take medications to treat her own virus. She gave birth to two children and breast-fed them, denying any risk to their health. And when her 3-year-old child, Eliza Jane, died of what the coroner determined to be AIDS-related pneumonia, she protested the findings and sued the county.

On Saturday, Maggiore died at her Van Nuys home, leaving a husband, a son and many unanswered questions. She was 52.

According to officials at the Los Angeles County coroner’s office, she had been treated for pneumonia in the last six months. Because she had recently been under a doctor’s care, no autopsy will be performed unless requested by the family, they said. Her husband, Robin Scovill, could not be reached for comment.

No cause of death was stated other than lingering pneumonia, but the world’s poster girl for replacing the HIV/AIDS paradigm – beautiful, intelligent, courageous, determined and persuasive in her personal and public rejection and condemnation of the official rationale for treating AIDS as if it were caused by HIV – looks likely now to become the poster girl for the witless defenders of the HIV faith, who are already trumpeting her death as the inevitable consequence of denying their belief.

But in fact, the report of the LA Times gives them no real grounds for saying so, and nor does her life. All the facts in the news report which suggest that Maggiore died because she flouted known science and disregarded established medicine are errors. Maggiore did test positive on an HIV test many years ago, but then negative often enough for her status in this regard to be uncertain at the very least, and in fact probably negative during the many years she wisely refused any further testing. Her child, Eliza Jane, did not die of AIDS-related pneumonia, but of allergic reaction to amoxicillin. This is perfectly clear to all who are not under the superstition that all illness is caused by HIV as soon as anyone mentions AIDS as a possibility. The child died very rapidly after being medicated by a standard antibiotic which occasionally causes fatal systemic overreaction. She did not decline over months from AIDS related symptoms of any kind.

Maggiore’s friends said she underwent a holistic “cleanse” last month that left her feeling ill.

“She was telling me that she wasn’t feeling great,” Carter said, adding that he questioned whether the pneumonia was related to AIDS.

As an advocate, Maggiore counseled HIV-positive pregnant women on how to avoid pressure to use the drug AZT as a method to reduce the chances of transmission to their babies. She considered the drug toxic.

Maggoire gave birth to her son, Charlie, and his younger sister, Eliza Jane, at home and breast-fed both, although research indicates that it increases the risk of transmission. Eliza Jane Scovill died in 2005 from what the coroner ruled was AIDS-related pneumonia. Maggiore and Scovill, however, hired a pathologist who concluded that the girl died of an allergic reaction to the antibiotic amoxicillin.

After Eliza Jane’s death, Los Angeles police investigated whether Maggiore and Scovill were negligent in not testing the girl for HIV. In 2006, the Los Angeles County district attorney’s office decided not to file criminal charges against Maggiore, saying that it would have been difficult to prove criminal negligence because Maggiore had sought medical advice. Friends said that Maggiore never fully recovered after the death of her daughter and that she had trouble even sleeping and eating. Her preteen son, Charlie, has tested HIV negative.

Last year, Maggiore and Scovill sued Los Angeles County and others on behalf of their daughter’s estate, charging that the autopsy report lacked proper medical and scientific evidence for the declared cause of death. The case is pending.

Why did Christine die?

From this superficial account given in the LA Times it is not possible to get any kind of clear picture as to why Maggiore would die at such an early age, since the only relevant phrases are “According to officials at the Los Angeles County coroners office she had been treated for pneumonia in the last six months” and “Maggiore’s friends said she underwent a holistic “cleanse” last month that left her feeling ill.”

The implication of the “officials”‘s comment is, of course, the fantasy that an otherwise healthy person suffers terminal PCP over time owing to the depredations of the lethal virus. Removing the superstition, all we know is that Maggiore was not very well in her last few months.

What is known is that Christine was a relative gentle soul on whom the stresses and strains of acting as a punching bag for the lunatic proselytizers of HIVcauses/AIDS ideology must have exacted a price over the years, particularly after she suffered the ultimate tragedy for a mother of losing a much loved child to a medical accident, when the viciously misguided demons from the dark corners and sewer tunnels of society emerged to hound her relentlessly, as they are now bound to do again.

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UPDATE: Jan 2 Fri

How Christine Maggiore died:

We have the following in from Celia Farber, posting on Dean’s World – Dean Esmay’s Blog , a last email a mutual friend received from Christine Maggiore on Dec 19, which gives a pretty clear picture as to how the poor woman died:
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“Regarding my health, I finally figured out what’s going on…but it got really scary. Here’s the scoop I just sent a friend: I have been through the absolute worst health nightmare ever.

The cleanse, while definitely bringing about some profound benefits, left me feeling weak and dehydrated. I lost my appetite almost completely about 10 days ago and for some weird reason could only tolerate hot tea and hot chicken broth. I had been in touch with the cleanse doc who said all was typical, uncomfortable but typical. Not one to quit, I kept going. Then I started to have trouble breathing, I was feeling winded after the most simple task like making the bed. This last Sunday, I stopped being able to sleep at all.

So finally, genius that I am, I made an appointment to see my MD who is really smart and very well versed in natural health care and not at all into the HIV paradigm. I could only get in to see her yesterday. She said I was totally dehydrated and having a reaction to the herbs in the cleanse which she thought were suspicious. I asked her to check my lungs and she said they sounded clear.

I told her I thought I should have a chest Xray anyway, just to be sure, but she was skeptical because I hadn’t had a cold, flu, cough or fever. But I insisted so she wrote me up to go to a radiology place that would give an immediate reading. By then I felt so ill I had to ask my neighbor to drive me and thank god he was there with me because I never would have made it to the radiologist without his help.

As it turned out, the Xray showed a very serious case of bi-lateral bronchial pneumonia. The doctor immediately gave me IV rehydration, IV natural cortisone, and IV antibiotic. She said if I did not improve by the next day, I would have to go to the hospital which I argued would give me worse treatment, lousy food and maybe a MRS infection as a parting gift. I went back again today, had more IV treatments and she said if I can make it through the weekend without having to go to the hospital, she will be very happy.

She also said I’m pretty tough to have had such severe pneumonia and keep going. I have three natural cortisone treatments I am to take everyday, and today I started with another antibiotic called Z pack which is different from the one used in the IV. It’s a little scary because she asked me if I am allergic to the antibiotics she’s giving me but I’ve never taken them, so I don’t know. She stayed next to me during the IV antibiotic to make sure I was not going into reaction which sort of made me feel like I might be having a reaction!

But I didn’t and I slept for the first time since Sunday last night. My appetite is getting back to normal and I am on total bed rest for two weeks. I can’t imagine doing otherwise.

Christine
——————————————–

It may look as if the coroner “official” was accurate in saying she must have suffered from some pneumonia for a while, and for some reason it got a hold, and her “cleansing” exacerbated the matter and her bodily resistance was overcome, although she claimed her mental fortitude was as strong as ever. But the congestion detected may simply have been produced by dehydration caused by the “cleansing” purgatively toxic herbs she swallowed in what may have been an inappropriate treatment.

As far as we understand it, everyday health is a miracle of so many coordinated inner processes that it is rather incredible we have so much of it for so long, except that there are many redundant and repair processes built in. However, the body’s functioning is highly dependent on the intake of necessary nutrients and water and once the system is weakened beyond a certain point, resident threats like tb or pneumonia can take hold and if the extra energy required to overcome them is not available, and better nutrition or artificial assistance with drugs is not sufficient, the final slippery slope is not too far away. Pneumonia in particular can be rapidly lethal, However, in this case it sounds more like dehydration, which produces congestion in the lungs and difficulty in breathing, and can itself kill in a matter of days unless remedied rapidly.

The additional stress is what makes the smear and rejection tactics of the HIV/AIDS crazies, from positions high and low in science and society, so morally revolting, because as group animals the energy we draw from others is normally one pillar of our health, and if this support is flipped from love to hate our inner resources are drained needlessly and a normally small injury or easily remedied mistreatment can be life threatening.

It is not too imaginative to say that the responsibility for Maggiore’s death lies in some measure with the way she was treated by these cretins.

One thing is certain. Anyone familiar with the science knows that it had nothing to do with HIV, except indirectly through the superstition fostered by irresponsible scientists such as Robert Gallo and John Moore and their champion Anthony Fauci of NIAID for their own purposes, and the lynch mob mentality they whip up to divert attention from their nefarious misleading of government and public.
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Disputing the HIV paradigm is an unlucky cause

This tragedy is a very unfortunate turn of events for AIDS reformers in their endless public battle against those who deny them a voice, ie the true denialists in AIDS, the scientists, officials and activists who deal with the blatantly unanswered scientific review and condemnation of HIV as the supposed cause by evading, avoiding and dismissing a critique they are evidently unable to answer effectively at the peer reviewed level in the proper journals.

The history of the last few years has been one where every victory achieved by the reformers in bringing the attention of the public to the validity of questioning the conventional wisdom has been answered by the gods with a setback which has dissipated their small successes.

In the death of Yale’s Serge Lang they lost one of the most determined and impressive reformers of academic and media hypocrisy and claptrap at the highest levels.

Politics burdens truth at Harpers

Lewis I would never have left Celia twisting in the wind Lapham, Harpers renowned editor

The extraordinary breakthrough of the Harpers piece, Out of Control, published two years ago by Celia Farber was a remarkable success which in normal circumstances would probably have proved a tipping point in media attention to the HIV Is/Is Not AIDS issue.

But breaking events had to be included and changed the nature and delayed the completion of the watershed article, and its momentum dissipated when it was finally published just at the time Lewis Lapham, the long time editor of Harpers who had originally responded to her talent and conviction and asked her to do the piece, chose to hand over the reins to a new and younger man.

The new editor by virtue of his new circumstances could not afford to rise above the political difficulties involved, as the soon to retire Lapham would have done, though he (the new editor) was entirely taken with the intellectual merit of her work and heavily involved in shepherding it to publication in its final polished and perfected form (contrary to the impression opponents tried to create in the letters column, there was only one proven error, which was trivial and beside the point, since it had to do with cuckoo clocks).

Bernie, meet Anthony, who did it first

Still, someone once said that any publicity is good publicity and if we have entered a new age of iconoclasm where in finance and economics the mighty are fallen and the gods are found to have feet of clay, it may be that the spirit of questioning has spread so far and wide that one of the issues that will be reviewed by the new administration may be the vexed issue of whether all the money being spent on HIV/AIDS is going down the right rat hole.

Bernie You mean that guy beat me to it? Madoff

After all, now that people have wised up the fact that even the greatest insider investment opportunity of the last decade turns out to be nothing but a giant Ponzi scheme – in fact, that much of Wall Street in the last decade or two has turned out to be nothing but a giant Ponzi scheme – it is not entirely unlikely that their scepticism might turn to wondering if scientists can be trusted any more than Wall St wizards not to abuse their responsibilities to the general public.

If Christine Maggiore’s tragically early death can serve to keep her role in questioning science at the forefront of the public mind, aided and abetted by the self defeating efforts of the mindless HIV defenders to abuse her even in the afterlife, then its heroism may yet help to achieve what she long fought for, a pubic review of what we may now call not the Enron of science or even the WorldCom of science, but the Bernia Madoff Ponzi Scheme of Science, equally global and worth over $50 billion.

Tiny Tony meets his PresidentIn other words, on the one hand we have Bernie Madoff, the $50 billion man. On the other, Anthony Fauci of the NIH, even bigger, having run off with even more of the public’s money in a scheme to which officials and leaders world wide have lent their name and which has caused considerably more deaths than the one suicide registered so far in the wake of Bernie’s arrest.

108 Responses to “Christine Maggiore dies, but not of HIV”

  1. MacDonald Says:

    TS,

    Amazingly and insufferably you are falling for the crap! Who says Maggiore hasn’t been well for several months? Who says she had lingering pneumonia never mind PCP? Going to the sources (not LAT or the LA County Coroner’s interest-conflicted Office) helps, Mr. Investigative Journalist:

    Christine Maggiore died at home on December 27th, from a bout of bilateral bronchial pneumonia, that afflicted her in recent weeks, and which she was unable to overcome.

    She had apparently been on a radical cleansing and detox regimen that had sickened her and left her very weak, dehydrated, and unable to breathe. She was shortly thereafter diagnosed with pneumonia and placed on IV antibiotics and rehydration. But she didn’t make it.

    Her foes have predictably begun their attacks, and there is already a misleading statement from the LA County Coroner’s office, against whom Christine was scheduled to testify two days from when she died, stating that she had had pneumonia for six months. This is incorrect, but helps foster the impression that it was an AIDS related pneumonia (PCP) which is a longer term illness. (Celia Farber)

    A week and a half ago, Christine was diagnosed with bilateral pneumonia and did not conjure the strength to overcome it. She died unexpectedly in her home with her husband and a dear friend. (Robin Scovill)

    http://www.deanesmay.com/2008/12/30/what-killed-christine-maggiore/

  2. Truthseeker Says:

    MacDonald, are you having difficulty reading here? Should we use shorter words? That’s precisely what we suggested, in every respect. In fact, the LA Times comes off quite well, too.

    The basic point that she was in a weakened state generally and succumbed to some detox regimen by contracting pneumonia and dying, which reason indicates is not the common reaction to whatever was practiced on her.

    And the source of her vulnerability was surely to some extent the poisonous verbal fumes emanated by the HIV/AIDS lynch pitchfork mob in all its ignorant bile.

    You would do better to give us your penetrating analysis of why it is that the ignorant are so fond of the ideology that exploits and even kills them, so that they want to destroy those that question it.

    But perhaps Samuel Johnson has already answered this question in the quote we happened to put upm on the logo to the blog yesterday, by some strange chance, which we will keep up there for a day or two in memory of poor Christine Maggiore, who is now truly a martyr to truthtelling in this arena, as was Serge Lang.

  3. MacDonald Says:

    You bring the LAT and LA Coroner’s rubbish, then you write,

    Removing the superstition, all we know is that Maggiore was not very well in her last few months

    No, we don’t know that unless we place some faith in the LA Coroner’s Office account.

    What I’d like to know is where the Coroner’s Office gets off disclosing and twisting information from the medical records of a still warm corpse. How about writing on that rather than the fairytales about how feeble Maggiore’s health was?

  4. Baby Pong Says:

    Several years ago, I wrote to Christine that she should be very careful, because by maintaining a high public profile as a Hiv + dissident, going on national TV shows and the like, she was making herself an irresistible target for a clandestine operation to discredit her and the whole rethinking movement. I said that it would be easy for some covert organization with infinite power and zero accountability, that is dedicated to the preservation of the Power Elite, like CIA or other secret team run by the medical mafia or whoever, to do something to her to make her get sick and die.

    They have all kinds of extremely toxic substances that they can administer to a person to induce illness, and can make it look like any disease they want. They can do this from a distance. They now even have the technological capability to intrude on the brain remotely with psychotronic technology in order to induce illness, excruciating pain or insanity.

    She wrote back, as I recall, and said, “I know.” But she said that she was more worried about them doing something to her children than to herself. This was before EJ got sick and died.

    After EJ died, I wrote to Christine that she should now do all in her power to try to test negative, in order to disprove the allegation that EJ died of Aids, and to protect herself from another covert operation that might be directed at her personally. She didn’t respond to that one.

    I think that EJ’s sickness may well have been the result of a covert operation, and obviously, Christine’s death is extremely suspicious.

    And I repeat what I’ve said before on various forums, that anyone who is Hiv + and a dissident is asking for trouble if they go public, and that, while they should indeed make their feelings known, they should protect themselves by using pseudonyms and keeping their real identities secret.

    People who think this is paranoid conspiracy theorizing are simply ignorant about what CIA and similar super secret organizations really do. They murder for political purposes, all over the world, and have in fact killed millions over the decades. This ignorance is understandable, as you don’t read about this activity in the media, you learn about it by reading books that are seldom reviewed in the New York Times.

    Whether they did in Christine or not, the CIA have to be working on Hiv/Aids, because Clinton declared it a National Security Issue, which automatically gets CIA involved. And covert ops is what they are infamous for. Which makes them, automatically, a suspect.

    The machiavellian Power Elite know that the masses are more moved by images, drama and mythology than by logic. To the public, the deaths of Christine and EJ, as presented prejudicially by the Controlled Media, are the proof that Hiv causes Aids.

    I don’t think that most of us realize just how politically destabilizing it would be if the masses learned that Hiv/Aids is a fraud. I think it would cause massive unrest and rage to the masses everywhere, obviously would result in unimaginable lawsuits against Big Pharma, Big Medicine, the Media and governments, would result in severe punishment for those who perpetrated it, would result in the masses learning skepticism and no longer obediently believing what governments, doctors, experts, even schoolteachers tell them. It even could cause revolutions, and would certainly destroy the US government’s and UN’s ability to dictate what is “scientific truth” to the rest of the world. In short, it would be disastrous to the Power Elite, and they know it.

    This is a devastating blow to us, and if any good can come of it, it will be that some rethinkers are forced to rethink their political naivete. The Power Elite have no morals. Their only ethic is “whatever works, we’ll do it.” That’s how they got where they are today, and that’s how they retain their power.

    This is not to say that Christine didn’t perhaps lose the will to live after EJ’s death, and that could also explain this. But the more sinister explanation must be considered as well.

  5. Baby Pong Says:

    The minute I heard about this, yesterday, I tried to find more information by googling Christine’s name. The first thing that came up was Wikipedia, which already had the news of her death in its biography of her, and called her a denialist (with a link to another Wiki page titled “Aids denialists.”)

    They didn’t waste any time, did they? Those Wiki folks are really on the ball!

  6. Baby Pong Says:

    The “holistic cleanse” would have been an excellent opportunity for someone to have covertly introduced some extremely toxic substance into Christine’s body, wouldn’t it have? Sorry if this speculation is unseemly.

  7. Michael Geiger Says:

    Pong,

    I am very concerned about your own mental state that seems to have been, and seems yet to be succumbing to general paranoia. A paranoia that is directly related to the original paranoia from which the entire hiv/aids sickness and death debacle has been created.

    Though I understand your concern in relaying to Christine that she or her children would or could be in danger of getting sick or even dying, do you really think it beneficial to anyone to have such stress causing thoughts and beliefs planted in their mind?

    But within short weeks, what the two of you projected became manifested into reality! Yet, Is this not enough to wake you up to the power of your own negative thinking?

    Have we as yet learned nothing from the hiv/aids episode, wherein we have so much evidence of how ones beliefs contribute to ones life, as well as the lives of those we project those beliefs upon? Of how easy it is to plant projections of sickness and death onto our own selves, as well as our friends, acquaintances or even onto our children and thereby help to create those fears into our realities? Of how hiv voodoo witch doctors who plant words of sickness and death in the minds of others which only ultimately assists people in creating their own self fullfilling prophecies?

    I strongly suggest that if you ever plant anything in anyone’s mind in the future, may it only be that they can and will always be safe and healthy.

    May you, Pong, awaken to the power of your own mind, and may you rise above your own fears and paranoias, or at least keep them from being projected upon others. Such negative thinking and fearful projections serve you and your loved ones no purpose, and certainly do nothing but assist others in creating what none of us want.

  8. Truthseeker Says:

    Michael, it is always good to encourage people in their fight for truth and justice or any other kind of worthwhile goal, but confidence alone is not enough to make things come true, or all the soldiers in the world, who all use denialism of the self protective kind to tell themselves they will not be killed if eg they go over the top of their trench in World War I into a hail of German machine gun fire, when in fact most of them will be and are killed despite their optimistic belief in themselves, their cause and a positive outcome.

    What is needed is to avoid extremes of either kind, whether mindless optimism and hope for victory, and excessive paranoia of the kind you rightly deplore as a downer. What those who fight in politics for worthwhile goals such as, in the case of HIV/AIDS, some way of getting off the current scientifically
    exploded, dangerously defective paradigm, and moving to a properly scientific analysis of the various ways in which the immune systems of ill people are destroyed and counted as “HIV/AIDS” ie a paradigm of HIVisnot/AIDS.

    The hard thinking which should go into the attempt of a few enlightened people to change a global policy program funded by billions of federal and commercial dollars should concern whether it is even possible and what route is possible – where the advances should be made in enlightening people, what the tipping point might be, what action should be urged on the executive if it becomes aware of the problem to enable the change in policy advocated, which can’t of course be a simple change from HIV causes AIDS to HIV does not cause AIDS, not with the vast investment of so many institutions in the error.

    We have a map of the potential solution to offer and will post on it. Meanwhile, it looks as if the effort to keep the Review of HIV as the cause of AIDS as one of the top three changes at change.org is going to fail if more votes are not forthcoming by the midnight deadline this New Year’s Eve, since the paradigm goons are apparently recruiting votes to elevate other issues past it and demote AIDS review to the position of fourth in the list which will prevent it from moving to the next deadline.

  9. Cathyvm Says:

    Aaargh TS this is the second time in 2 weeks I have been “biffed off” and had to re-register/retrieve old password etc.
    It kind of detracts from the feeling/sentiment I wanted to post. Deep breaths.
    I was very upset by Christine’s death. Another poster on change.org likened it to hearing about Princess Diana’s death but I would respectfully disagree.
    For one thing, I know of nobody personally whose life was touched by Di’s existence in any real way but do know of many whose lives were touched by Christine. I actually thought Di was a bit of a silly, not very bright “nice but dim” type, whereas Christine was an intelligent, humane, empathic and immensely courageous person.
    I don’t think it inappropriate that I, as someone who only communicated with her on a few occasions by email, should feel such devastation at her sudden death, but I do, because she was very special.
    Robin and Charlie – if you ever read this – you had a very special wife/mom and nothing anyone says can change that.
    Christine Rest in Peace.

  10. Baby Pong Says:

    Michael,

    I don’t think it’s correct to credit me with Christine’s and EJ’s deaths. Christine’s response to me, “I know.” And then saying that she was more worried about her children, indicated that she had already considered these ideas before I mentioned them. So I did not put the bad vibe into the ether, it was there already.

    We can’t ignore the ugly realities of what Power does in this world, and pretend that things just happen spontaneously and there are no conspiracies, and expect to change anything. We have to see the ugly reality and try to defeat it.

    Aids isn’t a science issue, it’s a political one, and being a goody two shoes and “calling for debate” or petitioning for a re-examination of the science isn’t going to succeed. You might have noted that our new Lincolnesque prexy has appointed Varmus as one of his science advisors. Varmus — the dude who has been intimately involved with the promotion of “Hiv” since the beginning. If anyone really expects David R’s mocha puppet to re-examine this controversy, that person is out of touch with reality, to put it nicely.

  11. Carter Says:

    Folks,

    Christine was perfectly fine up till a week prior to the December 11th Alive and Well Meeting. She was gung-ho about it, because she and I were planning it for several months already. The she told me that because the side effects of the detoxification and rapid die off of parasites as a result, left her weakened and regretfully didn’t think she could attend the first support meeting of Alive and Well Aids Alternatives in over a year.

    I had a long talk with Dr. Dennis Kinnane, LAc, OMD, whom was our guest speaker at that meeting yesterday and he suggested to me that maybe all she needed was to do a regimen of herbs that tonify deficiencies, strengthen or supplement the body’s resistance against diseases. That maybe the idea of a radical cleans is something of a western medicine mainstream process, i.e., that you have to kill all the parasites and was not such a good idea, especially if one happens to be weakened by stress already.

    I’ve known Christine personally for several years and she never shared too much detail in certain matters, this in particular. I now only wish I had gotten more information from her. Hopefully we’ll know more as time passes.

  12. Sadun Kal Says:

    “We have a map of the potential solution to offer and will post on it.”

    Please do. I think something like a real plan is urgently needed. More conscious steps should be taken, otherwise it won’t get anywhere I’m afraid. I feel like I’m just wasting my time when I spend my time looking into this from time to time, I don’t see much hope. I’m interested in more than saving a few lives, even if that alone can be a worthy thing to pursue…

  13. cervantes Says:

    Spending significant time digging into medical journals at the National Library of Medicine (NLM) at NIH in Bethesda (about 7 miles from the White House and Congress), the hair on my neck rises while on the NIH “campus” – with its acclaimed NIAID Chief, Herr Fauci.

    As an aside, the US Patent Office back in 1985 put on an unprecedented, fast track any patent applications that have anything to do with “hiv” or “Aids” – thus Gallo got his antibody-test patents asap, and he has made hundreds of $millions. The number of patent applications (and granted patents) focused on ‘hiv’ being infectious must number in the hundreds of thousands (patents being my profession). The number of medical products (‘stick-proof ‘ syringes a good example) are legion when it comes to guarding against hiv. The numbers of chemical patents on the hiv subject are also legion.

    A dramatic, large exhibit in the NLM is its depiction of the politically correct history of Aids and hiv, with Herr Fauci’s photo right there in the beginning in the mid-1980′s – and President Reagan’s grudging response. Lots of graphics citing ‘everybody is at risk’ -. Not to mention the on-campus newspapers of the heroic scientists at NIAID fighting hiv and searching for vaccines.

    How to ever overcome this inertia and gigantic industry (8/10 ths of one percent of the entire Federal Budget)? Truthseeker, you may have the key(s) to strategy overcoming this, and we all await your disclosure!

    For myself, it is clear there must be a major publication (newspaper or magazine) to follow in the footsteps of Harpers and/or the London Sunday Times in the UK that doggedly makes it Front Page ala Watergate, exposing the fatal science/intellectual flaws of the HIV/AIDS paradigm. I know from my personal experience that the typical editor will not take this on – as most all of us on this website also know.

    With Christine having fallen, we can only keep trying – and be inspired.

  14. Michael Geiger Says:

    Fortunately, We have indeed made it to the next round at change.org Thanks to all for your help.

    I do understand why many of us would feel somewhat helpless and question as to whether we are wasting out time in this matter. We have all felt that way at times. And circumstances such as the passing of Christine will certainly and thoroughly test our faith, our resolve, our belief, and our commitment.

    But I implore all to open your eyes anew. Take a sincere and an honest look at the dissident movement as it has grown from just a couple of individuals in 1987 to a worldwide movement that will not be quieted nor contained, not even by the loss of Christine or future loss of anyone else.

    In fact, if anything, Christine’s passing has blessed us in many as yet unforeseen ways. Her passing has deepened many peoples resolve in this cause, but it has also weakened her detractors. While they may have moments of devilish delight that she is gone, such a pendulum that emotions are eventually swings back the other way as well. Her death, so obviously caused by the stress put upon her by the aids advocates who relentlessly attacked her, has left each and every one of them all quite rightfully facing their own private shame and guilt for what they put upon her, with the fact that each and every one of them fully contributed to breaking her pure and gentle spirit in a battle of ever increasing stress put by them upon her, resulting in her eventual death that will now rightfully be laid, even by they themselves, right back upon them.

    And further unseen surprises most likely do also lie just ahead, for those with the patience, fortitude, and faith to see this through. The further failures of hiv research will be closely watched and loudly broadcast, just as were the vaccine failures, and the microbicide failures, and the failed claims of a worldwide heterosexual plague, and the Rodriguez et al study showing NO correlation between T cell counts and viral load, and on and on.

    The evidence against them is growing day by day and has already turned into a mountain!

    Christine herself said just weeks ago, just before she became ill, that this hiv/aids paradigm WILL be overturned in our lifetime. And so, I truly believe, it shall be.

    How will it come to be overturned?

    This question is irrelevant. The dissident movement has done nothing but grow ever larger day by day and year by year. It has been growing by leaps and bounds over just the last few years and now is more vocal than ever.

    And with Christine’spassing, the dissidents will likely be becoming even more outraged and more vocal.

    Such seems to me to be her ultimate gift to us, in that she truly did give her own life for this, our cause.

    And such will be the ultimate gift we could give back to her.

    I sincerely and fully believe we will overturn this, as we now solidify our movement more so than ever before.

    As for myself, I see minor delays but overall nothing ahead but good, resulting one day in a world that is free of the false belief of hiv/aids.

    When will it be overturned?

    Also irrelevant. Life is a process, not an event. Some surely will go to their graves believing in, or more like hiding behind, hiv as the cause of immune dysfunction, but the masses are slowly but steadily and likely will completely lose faith in it, as they gradually have done so more and more, and year by year.

    As for myself, I just remember the ancient and worldly truths by a few of those who so greatly affected the entire world in their own life times and whose energy and vibration of higher truths are yet reverberating throughout our world today:

    Faith, the size of a mustard seed will move a mountain.

    And….

    All things come to those who wait.

    So to all who are now tested and who are understandably feeling a bit lost or hopeless over this, I urge you be patient.

    Lose your hopelessness, it is unattractive, and it does not become you. It is not who you are.

    And keep the faith, or just hang on for the ride, because I think it highly likely “you ain’t seen nothing yet”.

    And stick around, and lend others your faith in this, as I now lend you my own, and I thank you all for being an integral and much needed part of this effort.

    I ask myself (and I think it is important for us all to ask ourselves), which of us, the aids orthodoxy, or the rethinkers, as regards this issue, is on the side of the higher truth?

    And surely no-one among us mere humans can ever stop the highest truth from being true. It stands alone, always shining brightly above the multitude of historic cacaphony of human beliefs based in false-hoods that litter the history of mankind.

    And yet each one of us bears our own truth, and we also bear our common truths. Alone we are nothing but a collection of our individual beliefs and emotions, but collectively, we are much more than the regretful and terrible loss of any of us. In whatever the truth may be that we collectively carry, we are unstoppable truth.

    As Seth Kalichman, has just prophecied on Tara Smith’s Aetiology blog, in one of the few statements of his that I consider having any kernal of truth to it, I don’t think I could have said it better myself:

    http://scienceblogs.com/aetiology/2008/12/christine_maggiore_dies_from_p.php#comment-1290899

    Nothing will ever stop these people, not even this.

  15. Truthseeker Says:

    “Aaargh TS this is the second time in 2 weeks I have been “biffed off” and had to re-register/retrieve old password etc.”

    Any such problems are of great concern to us and we would be grateful for any specifics sent to priority (at) (no spam) scienceguardian.com, Regrettably updating the blogware WordPress (tweaked) after a bug of some kind at BllueHost blew the whole thing has left some work to be done, and the complete update to WordPress 2.7 should happen shortly. Please be assured that intelligent comment by posters is treasured by the research staff of SG, and the apparently widespread character flaws of geeky tech support personnel and consultants who offer to “help” are an obstacle which also will be overcome as soon as possible.

    As an aside, the US Patent Office back in 1985 put on an unprecedented, fast track any patent applications that have anything to do with “hiv” or “Aids” – thus Gallo got his antibody-test patents asap, and he has made hundreds of $millions

    Believe that Gallo while at the NIH was restricted to $100,000 a year from patents from work on the public payroll, and presumably this restriction continued to apply. So hundreds of thousands ie one or two million might be more like it. Of course every penny is as fraudulently obtained as Bernie Madoff’s $50 billion, as even his enemies on the Nobel committee seem to have recognized.

    Yes Christine is now the saintly martyr of the AIDS reform movement, and her influence may be even greater from heaven than it was on earth. Sadly, it seems that after all she went through she still trusted too uncritically the authority and expertise of medical practitioners peddling alternative therapies of dubious quality. Seems to be one of the paradoxes of human nature that people can realize what is going on and write and speak about it on the intellectual level
    for the benefit of others with great effect, yet in their own case they may not see as clearly how their analysis applies. Perhaps this explains why doctors always put themselves under the care of a colleague rather than treat themselves. Physician heal thyself! is apparently more difficult than it would seem.

  16. Truthseeker Says:

    One of the most disgraceful things about the media coverage of HIV/AIDS reformers is how the reporters always neglect to mention the fundamental fact that Duesberg is a most credible scientist whose extensive critique rejecting HIVis/AIDS over 21 years is in the literature, has never been effectively refuted and rebuttal was never even attempted in the same top journals that he has published his major articles in.

    Apparently the reporters are simply unaware of the fact that the dismissal of HIV is a peer reviewed and extensively published judgment in the scientific literature, presumably because they only talk to Duesberg enemies such as John Moore and Charlie van der Horst who mislead them with statements such as “no credible scientist believes that HIV does not cause AIDS”. Apparently Michael Ellner did not serve to get this point across either to the ABC News reporter in this story (Death of an AIDS Skeptic: Friends Say Christine Maggiore Endured Media Stress; Doctors Say She Caused Misery.

    It is time for all HIV critics to make sure that reporters appreciate this central fact when they are used as a source. This is not creationism but a peer reviewed judgment in the top journals, which the John Moores of this world like to cover up and deny.

    Death of an AIDS Skeptic
    Friends Say Christine Maggiore Endured Media Stress; Doctors Say She Caused Misery

    By LAUREN COX
    ABC News Medical Unit
    Jan. 1, 2009—

    Christine Maggiore, an AIDS activist-turned-HIV/AIDS-skeptic, died in her home Saturday of pneumonia, according to the Associated Press.

    The Los Angeles coroner’s office has yet to determine if her pneumonia was AIDS-related. If it was, it could serve as an ironic end to her work, promoting the idea that there is no definite link between HIV and AIDS, and that HIV tests are inaccurate.

    Whatever details her autopsy reveals, Maggiore’s life may prove to be more controversial than her death.

    Since 1992, Maggiore founded two HIV/AIDS skeptic groups, including the Alive and Well AIDS Alternatives group in Los Angeles. Later, she traveled to Africa and is said to have personally influenced former South African President Thabo Mbeki’s decision to block funding for HIV-positive pregnant women in South Africa.

    Maggiore also appeared on TV, in Mothering magazine and in documentaries describing her decision to marry, have unprotected sex, and later breast-feed her two children without taking the drug AZT, which is typically prescribed to prevent an HIV transmission from mother to baby.

    AIDS researchers and public health advocates have overwhelmingly condemned her work and personal life as deadly.

    “They caused the death of thousands of South Africans by delaying treatment and spreading infections,” said Dr. Charlie van der Horst, a professor of medicine at the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill.

    Van der Horst referred to a journal study that estimated 330,000 lives were lost to new AIDS infections during the time Mbeki blocked government funding of AZT treatment to mothers.

    “There is a space in hell reserved for them,” said van der Horst.

    Other scientists have a more visceral reaction to Maggiore’s cause.

    “The image, on the cover of a magazine aimed at mothers, of her heavily pregnant, naked belly, daubed with a slogan ‘No AZT’ in red paint was one of the single sickest images the AIDS pandemic has ever seen,” said John P. Moore, a professor of microbiology and immunology at the Weill Medical College of Cornell University in New York City.

    At the time of the picture, Maggiore was pregnant with daughter Eliza Jane Scovill. In 2005, Eliza Jane died at age 3 of pneumonia. The Los Angeles County Coroner’s office determined her death to be AIDS-related, but the Scovill family claimed Eliza Jane died from a reaction to antibiotics.

    Maggiore and her husband, Robin Scovill were investigated, but never faced any charges related to the death.

    A Friend Lost

    Michael Ellner, a long-time friend and associate of Maggiore’s, believes the stress from her loss and the public backlash to her views caused her untimely death.

    “I lost somebody that I admired and loved, and I expect in the next couple of weeks that she’ll be raked over the coals, even though she’s dead,” said Ellner, who teaches hypnosis techniques to medical professionals and is the founder of HEAL, a volunteer group that disseminates AIDS skepticism information.

    Ellner met Maggiore in 1992, shortly after she received an HIV diagnosis and shortly after she met Dr. Peter Duesberg, a professor of molecular and cell biology at the University of California, Berkeley. Duesberg became known as a lone wolf in the AIDS research world for his theories that the strong, toxic nature of AZT drugs actually induces AIDS.

    “She didn’t match everyone else who had AIDS,” said Ellner, explaining that Maggiore came to doubt mainstream AIDS research during her early years as an AIDS activist. Ellner said Maggiore never appeared to be as sick as others around her.

    “There are always positions and counter-positions in science and legitimate differences of opinion,” said Thomas J. Coates, the Michael and Sue Steinberg professor of global AIDS research at the University of California, Los Angeles School of Medicine. “There have been those who have questioned many links — tobacco and cancer, emissions and global warming, circumcision and reduction of HIV risk, etc.”

    Coates said many big debates, such as evolution versus creationism, are not life threatening.

    “People still have the right to disagree,” said Coates. “But, in the case of questioning the link between HIV and AIDS, one has to ask a bigger question: What are the consequences? In the case of HIV/AIDS denialism, the consequences are death and disability and suffering and misery.”

    Life in the Spotlight

    Ellner pins the blame for Maggiore’s misery elsewhere.

    This November, Ellner said Maggiore was bombarded with calls and e-mails about an episode of “Law & Order” that seemed to mimic some elements of Eliza Jane’s story. The episode featured a baby who died of AIDS-related pneumonia and a mother who believed it was a reaction to an antibiotic.

    “She lost a child, she was accused of murdering her child and then everything was brought up again in November,” said Ellner. “This time of year, suddenly you develop the cold and flu, and with stress, that can lead to pneumonia. … You can blame it on the HIV, but that’s my opinion — she was killed by chronic stress.”

    Ellner never denies that AIDS itself exists. However, he does question the accuracy of the HIV tests, he questions that HIV leads to AIDS and agrees with Duesberg that AZT causes AIDS.

    “I see Christine with different eyes. The average person doesn’t appreciate that she studied this issue,” said Ellner.

    But that does not impress van der Horst.

    “There’s no question that HIV causes AIDS,” said van der Horst. “There’s absolutely not a single credible scientist who would disagree.”

    Ellner said that the HIV antibody test can only detect a “footprint” of a virus that was once in the body. However, van der Horst said the antibody test can detect both — evidence of an eradicated virus, and evidence of a “chronic” virus, like herpes or HIV that continually lives in the system.

    Van der Horst also points out that doctors have a second test for HIV that can detect the virus in the blood directly — called the HIV viral load test. With drugs, doctors see less HIV in a patient’s system.

    Van der Horst joined 5,000 other scientists by signing the so-called “Durban Declaration” in 2000. Developed in Durban, South Africa, the document asserted that HIV causes AIDS and that an effort to treat HIV is the best hope of fighting AIDS.

    Gail Wyatt, a couple’s sex therapist associated with UCLA, personally encountered Maggiore, and thinks a different approach would settle the debate.

    “I was on the Ricki Lake show about four years ago speaking against Christine’s insistence that she and her husband did not need to use condoms and that she did not need to be on medication,” said Wyatt. “I think that pointing the finger at those who doubt they need to re-examine their resistance to obtaining care may just entrench them in their positions.

    “We always need to leave the door open to those who may want to get tested, treated and protect themselves and others from HIV and AIDS,” she said.

    Copyright © 2009 ABC News Internet Ventures

  17. Cathyvm Says:

    Biffed off again TS. Tell your spotty techs I am not impressed.
    Groan aside an even bigger one lurks. I haven’t been over to unscienceblogs for a while – no point really. It’s like going to Sarah Palin’s “I’m being selected for this by God” blog and trying to argue she is just a narcissistic nincompoop.
    I went because I wanted to see first-hand, the depravity of the ghouls that are dancing on Christine’s grave. Actually mostly I was looking for some “material” to back something up that I am currently checking out.
    Much like you always disgust yourself for looking in the direction of a road traffic accident; I am disgusted that I “went there” (a disgusting job but someone’s got to do it).
    Michael your efforts are entirely commendable. But these people are not amenable to either logic or love. Thank you for trying anyway and I will post something “there” tomorrow (even though I know it’s a waste of time and energy – just on principle because I cannot read such vile filth and not say something, even though I know it will fall on wilfully deaf ears), but I will wait for my “temper” to subside.
    TS it doesn’t matter how hard we try and push various members of the press. I know from my stepfather’s murder (high-profile at the time) many years ago that “truth” and “reality” are usually the first victims for some gutter press members.
    WE know the truth of what Christine was and what she stood for. I’d like to think we will make an even greater effort for the next round at change.org to mobilise the 2000 plus dissidents out there (and their friends, and their dogs and cats) to get a bigger vote next time round. I have a cunning plan to get wider coverage/awareness next time round.

  18. Baby Pong Says:

    This is a woman who died suddenly two days before she was due to testify against a powerful enemy. In such cases, it isn’t unusual at all to suspect foul play, it’s the norm. So why am I vilified for suspecting foul play?

    I think it is probable that the ABC TV show 20-20′s invitation to Christine to appear on their show some years ago was intended as a setup and a trap. At the time, while others on the AME forum were expressing hopes that it would be a boost to the rethinking movement, I predicted that it would be a hatchet job, and it was.

    By showering Christine with publicity, albeit negative, it set the stage for her public immolation by covert operations. The strategy would have been to use Christine as a symbol of the entire dissident world. By first publicizing, then killing the symbol, and her child, and calling it “Aids,” they would also deliver a very destructive blow to the rest of us, and shatter our credibility.

    This is just a theory of course. But we already know that the media are in with the power elite, and lie like crazy on issues that matter to the elite. Imagine, a TV show with very high ratings, sponsored by drug companies, invites an Aids dissident to tell her story. It doesn’t make any sense except as a setup. And one that ended in tragedy for her, us, and the world.

    I am currently reading a series of articles that were in Nexus magazine, called “The Criminal History of the Papacy.” You can get it online as PDF files. The “infallible” popes of the middle ages included mass murderers, genocidal butchers, thieves, torturers, rapists, sybarites, libertines, homosexuals and connivers of the worst sort. It’s the kind of info that, if the church didn’t censor it today, they wouldn’t have a single adherent left. I find it instructive about the nature of power, and what those insane with power or the lust for power will do. And, it seems to me, power almost always causes corruption and a godlike belief in oneself. And when one thinks one is god, one can justify any criminal act, no matter how despicable.

    The point being, there is no limit to what “they” will do in order to retain and enhance their power and wealth. This phenomenon of human nature didn’t end with the middle ages; it’s alive and well today.

  19. Allen Says:

    Cathy,

    Sadly, there will not be a second round for this topic on Change.org. See the discussion on AME:
    http://tinyurl.com/8t2hz6

    Not only did they blatently alter votes in order move the idea down from 3rd place to fourth place, they later completely omitted the topic altogether in their article reviewing the top 5 ideas in the global health topic. http://globalhealth.change.org/blog/view/the_top_five_controversies_in_global_health

    Regardless of their obvious bias and unreasonableness, it is clear that many more people witnessed the idea and the topic. I have no doubt that people are discussing this idea who previously had never even considered the notion that aids is not caused by hiv.

    What does disturb me is that there is clear vilification of people based simply on one’s opinion on this matter. In order to completely disregard the rethinker point of view, they see us as insane and criminal, yet, we are very normal folks. But I liked what Michael says, that we are progressing as a movement and the word is spreading.

    We have the truth on our side and the truth cannot be suppressed forever. It is getting awfully expensive for them to maintain their state of denial.

    Allen

  20. Truthseeker Says:

    Pong, there is nothing different about how many people in power will do what is necessary to hold on to it, the syndrome extends all the way through society, from little Hitlers in minor official positions to the vast majority of rich Republicans who seem to make it their top priority to hang onto their money (money and power being 100% interchangeable) at almost any cost to the unfortunate downtrodden poor immigrants on which it is often based. Power is what sweetly seduces almost all who have it to compromise their youthful idealism, since everybody can see what happens to those without it (power/money) as they age.

    To get exercised about it and describe it in lurid terms smacks of disappointment and infantile rage at the inevitable disillusion with one’s parents or parent substitutes that we all must feel as we are forced by life to face up to social reality, but it doesn’t really help analyze the problem or work out a way to get around it, does it? We are dealing with human nature here and it is a given, unchanging over millenia unless Christlike Saviors like Mr Obama appear miraculously to save us all from it, and it seems that there is now some question as to the divinity of our President-elect since, as many posters here quickly divined very early, his process of selecting the best people from hundreds of enthusiastic candidates for his Cabinet posts seems to have been nothing better than the Casablanca strategy (“round up the usual suspects!).

    How Christine Maggiore died:

    Meanwhile we have the following in frrom Celia, posting on Dean Esmay’s Blog, a last email a mutual friend received from Christine Maggiore on Dec 19, which gives a pretty clear picture as to how the poor woman died:

    “Regarding my health, I finally figured out what’s going on…but it got really scary. Here’s the scoop I just sent a friend:I have been through the absolute worst health nightmare ever. The cleanse, while definitely bringing about some profound benefits, left me feeling weak and dehydrated. I lost my appetite almost completely about 10 days ago and for some weird reason could only tolerate hot tea and hot chicken broth. I had been in touch with the cleanse doc who said all was typical, uncomfortable but typical. Not one to quit, I kept going. Then I started to have trouble breathing, I was feeling winded after the most simple task like making the bed. This last Sunday, I stopped being able to sleep at all. So finally, genius that I am, I made an appointment to see my MD who is really smart and very well versed in natural health care and not at all into the HIV paradigm.I could only get in to see her yesterday. She said I was totally dehydrated and having a reaction to the herbs in the cleanse which she thought were suspicious. I asked her to check my lungs and she said they sounded clear. I told her I thought I should have a chest Xray anyway, just to be sure, but she was skeptical because I hadn’t had a cold, flu, cough or fever. But I insisted so she wrote me up to go to a radiology place that would give an immediate reading. By then I felt so ill I had to ask my neighbor to drive me and thank god he was there with me because I never would have made it to the radiologist without his help. As it turned out, the Xray showed a very serious case of bi-lateral bronchial pneumonia. The doctor immediately gave me IV rehydration, IV natural cortisone, and IV antibiotic. She said if I did not improve by the next day, I would have to go to the hospital which I argued would give me worse treatment, lousy food and maybe a MRS infection as a parting gift. I went back again today, had more IV treatments and she said if I can make it through the weekend without having to go to the hospital, she will be very happy. She also said I’m pretty tough to have had such severe pneumonia and keep going. I have three natural cortisone treatments I am to take everyday, and today I started with another antibiotic called Z pack which is different from the one used in the IV. It’s a little scary because she asked me if I am allergic to the antibiotics she’s giving me but I’ve never taken them, so I don’t know. She stayed next to me during the IV antibiotic to make sure I was not going into reaction which sort of made me feel like I might be having a reaction! But I didn’t and I slept for the first time since Sunday last night.My appetite is getting back to normal and I am on total bed rest for two weeks. I can’t imagine doing otherwise.

    Christine”

    It looks as if the coroner “official” was accurate in saying she must have suffered from pneumonia for a while, and for some reason it got a hold, and her “cleansing” exacerbated the matter and her bodily resistance was overcome, although she claimed her mental fortitude was as strong as ever.

    As far as we understand it, everyday health is a miracle of so many coordinated inner processes that it is almost incredible we have so much of it for so long, except that there are so many redundant and repair processes built in. However, once the system is weakened beyond a certain point, resident threats like tb or pneumonia can take hold and if the extra energy required to overcome them is not available, or artificial assistance such as drugs or better nutrition is not sufficient, the final slippery slope is not too far away.

    This is what makes the smear and rejection tactics of the HIV/AIDS crazies, from positions high and low in science and society, so morally revolting, because as group animals the energy we draw from others is normally a pillar of our health, and if this support is flipped from love to hate our inner resources are drained and a normally small injury can be life threatening.

    It is not too imaginative to say that the responsibility for Maggiore’s death lies in some measure with the way she was treated by these cretins.

    Anyone familiar with the science knows, of course, that it had nothing to do with HIV, except indirectly through the superstition fostered by irresponsible scientists such as John Moore and their champion Anthony Fauci of NIAID for their own purposes, and the lynch mob mentality they whip up to divert attention from their nefarious misleading of government and public.

  21. Truthseeker Says:

    Please don’t use tiny urls, there is no need (please correct us if we are wrong) that comes before the usefulness of reading the url as a label of platform and content.

    At the change.org site, the page that covers the Take a new look at the cause of AIDS has the following text in the right hand margin:
    ————————————–

    First Round Voting Closed
    First round voting for the Ideas for Change in America Competition closed at midnight on December 31, 2008.

    This idea finished in 3rd Place in the Global Health category and has therefore qualified for the final round. Final round voting will run from January 5th – 15th, and voting totals will be reset at zero for all qualifying ideas to ensure an equal playing field.”
    —————————————————————-

    Immediately below that it has the following text:
    ————————————————————–

    Top 3 Ideas in Global Health (votes)

    237 Peace Care — Bring Together Peace Corps and Resident Physicians to Impact Global Health

    204 Create a Global Health Corps

    155 Save Children from Preventable Diseases

    ——————————————-
    The votes recorded for the review of the cause of AIDS are 143. In other words, what has happened is that the paradigm goons have marshaled their forces to voted number 4 up to number 3 already, January 2. Supporters of this cause had better marshal their forces to make sure they win the vote total by Jan 15. It will be interesting to see who can win.

  22. Cathyvm Says:

    Christine’s email started all sorts of bells ringing in my head. I read recently that there have been documented cases where herbal medicines (and many pharmaceutical drugs) have caused interstitial pneumonia.

    Abstract
    The aim of this study was to call attention to interstitial pneumonitis as an adverse effect of herbal drugs. Twenty-four cases (22 patients) with herbal drug-induced pneumonitis were reviewed based on the Japanese medical literature. Eight types of herbal drugs were reported as causative agents, and 15 of the 24 cases were due to Sho-Saiko-to. On chest x-ray films, one patient with bronchial asthma showed a pattern of pulmonary infiltration with eosinophilia (PIE syndrome) and the others a diffuse interstitial pneumonitis. The duration of herbal drug intake was variable from a period of one day to several months. Major clinical symptoms were dyspnoea, cough and fever, and the laboratory data showed hypoxaemia and positive inflammatory reactions with increased WBC and raised ESR and CRP. Results of bronchoalveolar lavage (BAL) showed an increased lymphocyte or neutrophil population and a low OKT4/OKT8 ratio. The in vitro lymphocyte stimulation test (LST) was positive in 74% (17/23) of cases and the in vivo challenge test 100% (10/10). In conclusion, we should be attentive to adverse effects such as interstitial pneumonitis when we treat patients with herbal drugs. © 1997 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.

    Sho-Saiko-to is described as a “liver cleansing tonic” and is undergoing trials in hepatitis C and liver cancer. One website selling the stuff claims over 80 cases of interstitial pneumonia.

    I think this potential connection warrants further investigation.

    http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/12656/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

  23. Truthseeker Says:

    Let us note that the 143 total is not the old December total, purportedly, since that was 158:

    Fortunately i made a screenshot at 01/01/09 at around 0:30. Therefore i can prove the original outcome in the category “Global health” :) . There were 158 Votes for “Take a new look at the cause of AIDS”…

    Posted by Stefan Risch on 01/02/2009 @ 09:41AM PST

    Or have they simply cut out 15 votes from the total moving into January?

  24. Truthseeker Says:

    Either way, the San Francisco gay/liberal/progressives at Change.org have firmly bounced the idea from further consideration, it seems. There does not seem to be a way of voting anew for this issue now. Anyone see otherwise, please advise. The AIDS Myth Exposed discussion thread reports letters from change.org explaining their action first as their having detected vote cheating, then switching from that to saying the idea is unsuitable. Another example of the Web exposing naked cheats, it appears.

    Examples of currently winning suitable ideas that they will announce at the National Press Club on January 16th: Legalize marijuana, Appoint a Secretary of Peace, Gay Marriage, Save Handmade Toys, The Autism Act, Legalize Milk, Bridging the Empathy Gap, the Dream Act, Repeal the Patriot Act, Single Payer Health Care, Stop Puppy Mills.

    Clearly this is not anything to take seriously. Far better for people who support this review to enter it at Change.gov, which is the Obama site for policy ideas.

    We have just entered a question to vote for as follows:

    “The cause of AIDS has been seriously disputed for 21 years in scientific journals by reputable scientists answered by HIV researchers only with politics (see scienceguardian.com). Will you order objective review to establish proper AIDS policy?”
    Truthseeker, NYC – Health Care

    Apparently that can be voted for.

  25. Truthseeker Says:

    Either way, the San Francisco gay/liberal/progressives at Change.org have firmly bounced the idea from further consideration, it seems. There does not seem to be a way of voting anew for this issue now. Anyone see otherwise, please advise. The AIDS Myth Exposed discussion thread reports letters from change.org explaining their action first as their having detected vote cheating, then switching from that to saying the idea is unsuitable. Another example of the Web exposing naked cheats, it appears.

    Examples of currently winning suitable ideas that they will announce at the National Press Club on January 16th: Legalize marijuana, Appoint a Secretary of Peace, Gay Marriage, Save Handmade Toys, The Autism Act, Legalize Milk, Bridging the Empathy Gap, the Dream Act, Repeal the Patriot Act, Single Payer Health Care, Stop Puppy Mills.

    Clearly this is not anything to take seriously. Far better for people who support this review to enter it at Change.gov, which is the Obama site for policy ideas.

    We have just entered a question there as follows.

    “The cause of AIDS has been seriously disputed for 21 years in scientific journals by reputable scientists answered by HIV researchers only with politics (see scienceguardian.com). Will you order objective review to establish proper AIDS policy?”
    Truthseeker, NYC – Health Care

    Apparently this can be voted for. You find the question by searching for “the cause of aids”.

  26. jtdeshong Says:

    I am truly sorry for the loss of all those that mourn Ms. Maggiores’ death.
    However, I cannot help but be extremely saddened by the fact that even in the face of what may turn out to be an obvious death from an AIDS related illness (as most healthy 52 year olds do NOT die from pneumonia) you peple are just digging in your denialist heels!!
    Just think about how shocked and distraught you were when you found out she died. Then multiply that by 1 million in regards to a family member of someone else that chooses to not take life saving HIV meds and then dies. Then take on a little of the responsibility that you, in your public denial, may have helped to cause their death.
    You should all be ashamed of yourselves. Unfortunately, I know from previous dealings with you, that you will not even let your self be bothered.
    Sincerely,
    J. Todd DeShong
    http://www.dissidents4dumbees.blogspot.com

  27. Truthseeker Says:

    On the contrary, Mr DeShong, it is your type who bear quite a lot of responsibility for weakening Christine Maggiore with the constant assault of your ignorant meddling in a scientific dispute which is far above your head. But we value your hilarious contributions here, since they demean your side of the issue so effectively and amusingly.

    If you knew the slightest thing about standard medicine in general you would know that the conventional view of AIDS doesn’t fit Maggiore’s case at all, and that the dehydration associated with her cleansing treatment either as a trigger or a consequence or both is a prime candidate for her symptoms and her death. The supposed pneumonia was congestion associated with dehydration, in all likelihood.

    These matters are above your head, DeShong. You will only hurt your brain considering them. But as always we admire the pluck with which you set out to conquer medical Matterhorns dressed only in a motor cycle helmet and carrying a hammer and a chisel.

  28. yello Says:

    To Baby Pong Sir, I say, you have a far larger share of folks who comprehend your views without disbelief than you may realize. Wikipedia itself has to grudgingly admit that conspiracies exist in spite of their attemptes to whitewash it. Too many examples are constantly bludgeoned forward, including very long-lived ones such as the Tuskegee Experiments.

    Michael Geiger sir, I have to say that the following comment snatched from another website:
    http://jameshowardkunstler.typepad.com/clusterfuck_nation/2008/12/legitimacy-dwindles.html#comments, proves some promise to your statement that even the scientists will one day be held accountable or at least disregarded in many fields.

    jtdeshong and truthseeker sirs, it would do you both well to peruse this following post. All of the scandalous affairs, including the Madoff ponzi scheme, have range times of 8 to 30 years if not longer…They were vocalized against by minorities from their inception, yet those vocal minorities were swept away by enthusiastic PTB….do not be so dismissive of the concept of both mass human peon blindness and powerful elite desire working in concordance.

    “Here’s a piece I wrote on the 15th. It echoes your sentiments quite accurately.

    A Brand New DIS-Belief System Is Born

    The U.S. is, in the best case scenario, entering an economic depression that will be far worse than both the Great Depression of the 1930s and the Panic of 1873. At worst, the USA will collapse altogether. Here’s Why:

    Belief in any system—and in this case we are discussing the concept of belief in the US economic system—is like oil to a combustion engine. Without belief in the credibility of the system, the economy seizes up and dies. It’s that simple. If a system lacks credibility, if people don’t believe in it, than they will not participate in that system (Unless of course they are compelled to at gunpoint, but we’re not there quite yet) Now in some cases, if things haven’t gone too far, trust can be reestablished and with that trust a belief in the system might grow—and the engine can be saved. But once trust has eroded beyond the point of repair, there is no chance of resuscitation. Either the system has to be thrown out and a new system has to take its place, or the citizens of the system have to be compelled by force and repression to accept the old way of doing things. This is where we stand today. Belief in the credibility of our economy has been summarily destroyed.

    We hear a lot these days from the likes of Ben Bernanke and Henry Paulson and Barney Frank and Chris Dodd and George Bush. Each says essentially the same thing: Once the credit markets unfreeze, and once banks start lending again and people start borrowing again, once confidence in the system is restored then we’ll be on the road to recovery. Each of these men, and millions who echo their sentiments, predict that this “recession” will ease soon because the FED is taking aggressive action to stimulate lending and to thaw the still-frozen credit markets and to lower mortgage rates and to stimulate employment and production, etc.. They are wrong. The credit markets will never thaw and banks will never start lending again because belief in the system has died. And because of this, the old regime and era of Fractional Reserve Banking and “money as debt” is also dying, albeit a violent and protracted death. And at the very heart of the crisis exists the foundational dynamic created by the decade-long DERIVATIVES experiment:

    Virtually every bank, every financial institution, every nation, has a secret vault in which it is hiding its bad assets. And no one really knows who holds what. And some of these bad assets are part of bundles of securitized instruments that are so complex and so difficult to detangle, that it would take decades just to unravel them all and actually discover what all of the assets are really worth—if anything. And we’re talking upward of 500 TRILLION dollars worth of these hidden, secretive, worthless assets. And the depth of mistrust that exists has become so powerful that it has, in a most extraordinary moment in history, actually given birth to an entirely new belief system! And what makes this new belief system so cataclysmic is this new belief system bases its spiritual and intellectual foundations upon the idea of disbelief! The leaders of the world—both political and financial—have, through their decades of theft and duplicity and lies, given birth to a new paradigm: the paradigm of disbelief. And it is this new paradigm, this new DIS-belief system if you will, that makes trust in the old way of doing things totally impossible.

    Now, many of our self-proclaimed leaders continue to argue that this crisis will abate once “confidence” in the economy has been restored. These folks would argue that disbelief and confidence are, for all intent and purpose, synonymous. They are wrong. And underestimation of the power of disbelief keeps them from acknowledging the magnitude of our plight.

    Let’s take a brief look at a few examples of how disbelief in the system—rather than simply a lack of confidence in the system—will lead ultimately to the TOTAL collapse of the United States’ economy.

    1. Banks won’t lend to other banks—regardless of the declining LIBOR, falling interest rates, etc.—because every bank assumes that all of the other banks are insolvent.

    2. Banks won’t lend to individuals because banks currently assume that these loans will not be repaid.

    3. Individuals refuse to take out loans from banks because banks have proven themselves to be dishonest, usurious institutions. In addition, people are coming to the realization that suffocating under a regime of debt servitude to banks is not the way they want to live out their days.

    4. People have lost all faith in our federal government. Congress, the President, the folks who have promoted their economic Friedmanite agenda for decades—all of these institutions lack any sort of credibility. Hatred for and a lack of belief in our politicians and financial leaders is omni-partisan.

    5. Shipping of commodities has come to a virtual standstill because commercial paper (short term promissory notes) are no longer trustworthy instruments of commerce.

    6. Credit card companies are viewed with such contempt that the old regime of living with credit is slowly collapsing. Those in debt are defaulting by choice, refusing to pay the usurious issuers of these instruments of indenture.

    7. Scandals like the Madoff affair are cementing for citizens the fact that the entire system, from the Hedge Fund managers to the accountants to the SEC overseers, is rotten to the core.

    8. The scandalous decision to allow institutions to valuate their own assets in what can only be called a mark-to-bullshit model of valuation is not lost on the ever-growing number of people who believe that they are being royally screwed by the US kleptocracy.

    9. Eight years of a Bush regime that demonstrated total disregard for the idea of law—including the apparent duplicity regarding the reasons for going to war in Iraq and the Katrina scandal—have further solidified citizens’ disbelief in the current paradigm.

    10. The lies of Paulson and Kashkari regarding the use of the TARP funds, and the apparent decision of these men and their Congressional allies to save the rich whilst sacrificing the poor has further decimated systemic credibility.

    11. The U.S. decision to ignore the world’s call for action on Climate Change vis-à-vis the Kyoto Accords, and the Bush Administrations decision to repeal emissions standards for industry, has eroded any belief that citizens of the country might have when their leaders speak of concern for the environment. Saying one thing and doing another creates disbelief. The same is true of the “Big 3” automakers, who claim a belief in stewardship of the environment while simultaneously suing states over toughening emissions standards for cars and trucks.

    12. The story that won’t go away—that of the impending 500 Trillion dollar Credit Default Swap ponzi sceheme, which made CEOs of companies like Lehman and AIG multi-millionaires—continues to defy attempts by the government and financial leadership to sweep the story under the rug. When the defaults begin and the dominoes fall, disbelief in the system will reach new heights.

    13. The Housing foreclosure disaster has left citizens without any trust for a system that created the subprime debacle. And despite all of the foreclosures and the implosion of the housing market, lenders continue to try and swindle people and trick people into refinancing or modifying their existing loans. Disbelief in this system is exploding at an exponential rate.

    14. The creation of MBS, Mortgage Backed Securities, has further exacerbated the plummeting trust in the banking and lending sector. Now when a home-owner tries to contact his or her bank in a desperate attempt to save their home, the bank simply says that it no longer holds the loan. It sold the loan as part of a package of similar loans to someone else, who then re-packaged it and sold it to someone else, and so on—and no one knows where to find the loan anymore. Belief in the people who brokered these deals has disappeared.

    15. Everyone’s getting laid off and people are having trouble making ends meet, and anger is mounting, and meanwhile, everyday on TV and on the Internet, people are bombarded with images of the manors and estates and wealth of the very men whose actions have destroyed their lives.

    16. What was once touted as GDP growth is now being exposed as nothing more than DEBT growth, if you will. The lie of the schemers is coming into full view, and people are finding it harder and harder to believe that wealth was, in fact, created, when they are suffering under mountains of debt and lost income.

    17. The power of the Internet as a source for disseminating information regarding the destruction of the US by the keptocrats is reaching tens of millions of angry people.

    18. Outbreaks of E-Coli from spinach and cattle raised on city-sized mega-farms is sickening thousands: belief in the credibility of our system of food production and distribution is faltering.

    I could go on. I have barely scraped the surface. But my point should be clear: We have moved beyond the point where swings in confidence in a system implicitly recognize that system as credible. We have moved to a regime of disbelief in the system, and this disbelief is growing by the hour, and there is nothing that can be done to stop its momentum. On some level we have reached a moment of crisis in our identity as a nation not entirely unlike that which we faced in the mid-19th century. We have reached a point where disbelief in the credibility of the current system will become a force that will tear us apart. How we will survive is a matter for the seers. But make no mistake about it: this is no Recession, and there will be no Recovery.”

  29. MacDonald Says:

    LOL! quite a striking metaphor, Mr Truthseeker. I’d say you’ve made up for appearing to give any credit to the LA Coroner’s Office’s unfounded speculations.

    But let’s try to educate Mr DeShong in a more paedagogical manner.

    Mr Deshong, if you were HIV postive (you claim to be) and, if you were given the opportunity (you hereby are) to write your own obituary, what would it be?

    Mr Truthseeker, the AIDStruthers could not have voted anything in between midnight Dec 31 and Jan 2, since the voting was closed.

    The changedotorg crew is going though a meaningless exercise of alleging “voter fraud” in order to discredit the “Take a New Look at the Cause of AIDS” Idea. That is because they have felt the pressure from the truthiness squad, but also from the Rethinker campaign, led by, among others, yours truly, to exposed their manipulations.

    pseudochangedotorg first deducted 10 votes, then disqualified the topic on semantics-defying grounds, then proceeded to deduct another 5 votes from an already disqualified topic. These are obviously amateurs at damage control and obfuscation, not really a match for us, but they are equally obviously learning as they go along.

    Please supply the URL, so we can vote for your excellent idea submitted to the real website.

    Also be advised that Dr. Andrew Maniotis has entered his own excellent idea:

    I submitted the same statement as an idea to

    http://change.gov/page/s/ofthepeople

    in its entirety, and under each the categories:

    Civil Rights
    Disabilities
    Economy
    Education
    Ethics
    Faith
    Family
    Fiscal
    Foreign Policy
    Health Care
    Homeland Security
    Immigration
    Poverty
    Taxes
    Technology
    Urban Policy

    I hope they like it. (Andrew Maniotis)

    The statement referred to by Dr. Maniotis is a lengthy, at times quite technical, collection of uncomfortable facts about AIDS and HIV, so I will not post it now for fear DeShongs brain may explode before he has had time to write his own obituary.

  30. MacDonald Says:

    Yello,

    An up-lifting piece for an old Anarchist like myself. I hope you are right that dis-belief as a spiritual or inspirational force will overcome the deadening lethargy, inertia and chronic amnesia, which seem to be mankind’s enduring afflictions. If not, the new anti-belief system will mere make for a more stoic March of the Lemmings.

  31. jtdeshong Says:

    Oh, Truthseeker and MacDonald,
    I am glad that I could come here and make you two love birds make up. For just at the beginning of this thread, you two were at odds.
    Now, TS, I LOVE the fact that you are again, despite losing one of, if not THE major leader of your cult driven anti-scientific drivel, that you are trying in one breath to blame me, while in the same breath, without acknowledging it, you are actually showing where the true blame lies!!
    God, this is too easy.
    I am not to blame for her death. You say that I am, but in the same breath, you write that she had endured some bullshit “cleansing” which lead to her dehydration and ultimately, her death. Now why, I ask you, would someone in her condition try to endure something that would tax her “incredibly healthy” system to the point that she would become dehydrated and die?
    I have seen many runners here in the true heat of Texas in July/August, when the temps are in the 110+ degrees, go thru dehydration, but NOT die!!
    Now tell me, why would someone in great health, as Maggiore ALWAYS claimed to be, die in California in December of dehydration? Come on. Take some responsibility that SHE could NOT and stop trying to kill others.
    I agree that her death was a tragedy. Mostly because her death was in vain!! Just like her poor, little 3 year old daughter’s death was!!
    How long are you going to perpetuate these lies and kill others in the process?
    Can you answer that you lying, snivelling tool!!!
    Sincerely,
    J. Todd DeShong
    http://www.dissidents4dumbees.blogspot.com

  32. Cathyvm Says:

    DeShong a friend of mine (the same age as Christine) had a drug-induced interstitial pneumonia only 2 months ago and had to be hospitalised in “critical condition”, oxygenated and given steroids – that’s why Christine’s email rang bells. I was only researching it recently.
    People of all ages can die of pneumonia. Your assertion is ridiculous. “HIV disease mortality” in the 45-54 group was 4516 and for pneumonia was 2,138 (2005 CDC statistics). Given that the “HIV” stats include any cause of death – from suicides, car crashes, heart attacks, pitchfork incidents as well as PCP and other pneumonia, and we already know that adverse effects of HAART kill more often than “HIV disease” then it looks like pneumonia absent HIV kills more people than pneumonia WITH “HIV”.

  33. yello Says:

    In case Tara the frog decides to remove it

    “I was obviously completely wrong in 2005 when I speculated that Christine Maggiore was not HIV+. I did not know when I wrote the piece in question that her daughter Eliza Jane had already died of AIDS-related pneumonia. Assuming that the little girl had no risk factors other than (almost entirely preventable) mother-to-child transmission, the daughter’s diagnosis confirmed the mother’s HIV status.

    I came to the erroneous conclusion that Maggiore was HIV negative from a close reading of Maggiore’s own statements about her experience with HIV testing and the inconsistent results over several tests. I made a judgement call between two possibilities. Either Maggiore was dissembling and was in fact HIV negative and knew it, but had embarked on this new career trajectory that was based on her personal story (my family and I are alive and well despite my HIV diagnosis), or Maggiore had was in fact HIV-infected, knowingly put her own children at risk, and urged other HIV+ pregnant women to expose their children to the same risks. I gave her too much credit: I didn’t think a loving mother would let her child die needlessly. Sadly, I was wrong.
    Jeanne Bergman”

    As a man who has known several individuals die of AIDS and has whole-heartedly remained steadfast to the mainstream paradigm. I have one thing to say to all of the media, scientists, Pharmaceutical industries and others.

    You fucking pieces of shit. You have _failed_ me and everyone else. You lying worthless assholes who know everything before us laymen have twisted and spewed shit out to your own advantage.

    How are you any different from the current Bank and Auto bail-out scandals?!?!? Oh, wait, you’ve been doing this for _20+_ years.

    For all of you and especially Mrs. Bergman (was _certainly NOT alone in coming up with the concept that Ms. Maggiore was HIV-), I hope there is a special place in Hell for the evil, cowardly tactics you have applied. Your condescension of my fellow layman brothers and sisters has costed us hundreds of thousands of lives.

    BTW, how is it that the 99% fail-proof tests can register positive,negative,indetermine and back again?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
    And your treatment _all_ of you, of this woman who you all were slavering to denigrate as an opportunistic HIV- preying on the fears of HIV+ over her child?!?! You filthy pieces of shit. How many strings did you pull once you heard of her child’s death?

    And why did Ms. Maggiore die just three days before she was to testify against Dr. James Ribe? A coroner who has proven himself an embarrassment time and again repeatedly in cases completely exclusive of the the Maggiore child?!?!

    I don’t know who to believe. I can’t agree with the denialists. Yet I actually peruse _every_ paper that comes out, instead of just relying on the mainstream media. I used to trust you fuckers, but ever since the past year of economic bail-outs, to subjects as obscure as Aetogate. I have realized the whole field of mainstream human endeavors is now thoroughly corrupted at various levels for personal greed, profit and whining complicity to the PTB.

    Fuck you all. ERV, PZ Meyers*, Tara Smith and so many,many others. You have failed, and failed miserably.

    *Okay, I don’t begrudge you for chewing out the ID/creationists idiots, but that’s as far as I go.”

  34. MacDonald Says:

    Just in case Tara decides to remove the words of this feisty young ladyÆ

    “Jeanne Bergmann,

    Your argument is that you wrote about a person whom you believed to be lying about her HIV status, but that you were wrong about your assumptions, and it’s not your fault you didn’t verify the story independently, because you couldn’t have known that the person you were accusing of lying was unreliable – oh and by the way you didn’t know her daughter was dead, because you didn’t bother doing any independent research but chose to rely solely on the words of the person you believed to be an unreliable witness.

    That is actually your defence in this case? Are you sure you’re a lawyer, Ms, Bergman?

    What say Seth Kalichman; does he believe in the existence of Jeanne Bergmann the lawyer, or Jeanne Bergmann the bad joke?

    Well, Ms. Bergmann, why don’t you let a fellow lawyer make it shorter for you:

    You proceeded with blatant disregard for objective facts, then as now. Case closed.

    Or perhaps you have confirmed that Christine Maggiore lied about her test results? Can you prove it? How could you base your judgment about another person’s serostatus on anything but the test results? We’re not in Bangui you know.

    You don’t have a shred of a case. Or do you? I can arrange for you to come over and prove it everything paid for.

    Just let me know and I’ll fwd you contact details.

    Posted by: Alice | January 2, 2009 11:30 PM”

    http://scienceblogs.com/aetiology/2008/12/christine_maggiore_dies_from_p.php

  35. Truthseeker Says:

    Yello, you say I don’t know who to believe. I can’t agree with the denialists

    The sheer inanity of this sentence coming in among the others – whose lurid and unscientific passion we relish and easily forgive because it is entirely justified in this case – is mind boggling. What exactly prevents you from understanding that the HIV/AIDS claim is utter scientific drivel and has been from the start, and the politically and financially driven scoundrels you castigate have been able to fend off proper public review for 22 years only with the aid of fatheads who “can’t” believe that they can pull off such a trick?

    Why is elementary consistency beyond you in framing your world view?

    And as for your lengthy proof that the world economic system is broken forever because confidence will never return, you seem to ignore one simple fact – we are married to it, and in marriage, all betrayal is replaced by renewed trust at least on a working basis, unless divorce is an option, which it is not in this case. We have gone too far along the path of urbanization to be able to return to the barter system, which is the only alternatiive. Unless you want to keep hens in your bedroom and plant tomatos on your window sill.

    Just take a look at the stock market. What is it saying?

    MacDonald, sometimes when contributors are sufficiently bad they are very very good, but there is no need to take them too seriously. They are provided by Nature for our entertainment.

    Voting for a review of HIV/AIDS at change.gov

    Regarding our policy proposal on change.gov, it is almost impossible to find unless you go to this page, this page for Questions, and then type in “cause of aids” into the search slot. Three choices come up, and my question is one of them:

    “The cause of AIDS has been seriously disputed for 21 years in scientific journals by reputable scientists answered by HIV researchers only with politics (see scienceguardian.com). Will you order objective review to establish proper AIDS policy?”
    Truthseeker, NYC – Health Care

    Why can’t this serve as a rallying point since you can vote on it by hitting the tab on the right? It mentions this site as a way of tipping off the Obama staff intern reading through all this that there is substantial further information a click away.

    May put the quote on the site logo for a time to help things along.

  36. Cathyvm Says:

    Hi TS – I voted but it is such a shame that we can’t comment.

    DeShong – is that the best you can do? You are but a mini nanoparticle when it comes to grown up issues that you patently fail to grasp. Alternately shrieking like a really bad extra off Priscilla QOTD and foul potty-mouthing impresses no-one apart from spotty, teenaged homo-wannabees.

    Now run along back to your own befouled and largely ignored blog.

  37. Truthseeker Says:

    Cathy, as far as we can evaluate the site it is extremely poorly designed and very hard to find anything at all, and the interaction seems to be minimally enabled.

    If this is the standard of implementation we can expect from those under the command of the President-elect after he ascends the throne, we can expect the entire United States political and economic structure to slip quietly beneath the waves within six months, just as Yello predicts.

    But may we beg you and others to be kind to small animals if they stray into the palace precincts.

  38. yello Says:

    Truthseeker sir, I guess I’m still desperately trying to hold onto the mainstream paradigm. The death of Christine Maggiore hasn’t swung me toward it, to the contrary, the scummy responses and gravedancing have firmly positioned me within the so-called “denialist” camp.

    I hate these motherfuckers, Tara and all her ilk. I’m being slowly consumed with sheer rage at the unbelievable revelations that seemingly _everyone_ in power in a lying, profiting sack of shit. Not only that, but this rotten in Denmark ethos seems to have permeate _all_ aspects of of our civilisation.

    C’mon Truthseeker sir, after the past 8 years, especially the past 8 months, what can we trust?!?
    Who can we trust?! Don’t be blind man!We are entering very uncertain territory, where the world will either teeter into a new dark age of feudal vassalage or global enlightenment, there _is_ no middle ground!Make no mistake, no matter what you or others of your ilk might plead, there are too many well educated folks in every corner of our world that can teach the desperate of Truth. Either they will all be eliminated in a final solution or we will eventually overthrow the fossilized PTB.

    Here is another post in case it disappears

    “Heraclides, I will directly quote from one scumbag piece of shit to another scumbag piece of shit (you)

    Jeanne Bergmann from here New York Press Piece.

    “False-negative HIV tests are extremely rare, while false positives are much more common, though infrequent. This fact and all the other available evidence strongly indicate that Maggiore was never infected with HIV, … Most people would be thrilled to learn they were uninfected, but Maggiore was unwilling to give up the spotlight. This HIV pretender twisted her good health and the marginal incidence of false positives into a lucrative new racket—selling HIV denialism and bragging about her good life ‘without pharmaceutical treatments or fear of AIDS.’ But of course Maggiore has no ‘fear of AIDS’—she doesn’t have HIV. She has since had two children, now three and seven years old, whom she boasted to Scheff ‘have never been tested. … They don’t take AIDS drugs. And they’re not in the least bit sick.’ But of course Maggiore didn’t want them to be tested: she knows that they are not at risk and that their being uninfected would lead people to question her own status. And of course they don’t take ‘AIDS drugs’—they don’t have HIV or AIDS.

    “Christine Maggiore isn’t living proof that HIV doesn’t cause AIDS; she’s just another lying AIDS profiteer, exploiting the real fears of those who actually are infected with HIV and the real suffering of those living with AIDS to get public attention, sell books and pick up well-paid speaking gigs. This might matter less if she wasn’t telling parents and caregivers of children who really are HIV-infected to take the kids off difficult but life-saving antivirals. Maggiore has never had to make agonizing treatment decisions for herself or for her children.”

    Jeanne Bergmann and the others who were just beginning to eagerly take up this mantle before the ever so convenient death of Eliza Jane Scovill are all disgusting, worthless vacillating pieces of shit.Btw, It is ever so convenient for Dr. James Ribe that Christine Maggiore croaked just three days before his trial.

    I’ve seen the disgusting PTB scream for the enforcement of free-markets and ultra-capitalist deregulation. Then quickly turn around and whip the government into shape when they “failed” so as we Taxpayers shelled out $700-800 billion of our dollars with very little representation.
    (Actually, the total cost will be in the hundreds of trillions) This is not some weird assed conspiracy, it’s been splashed across the world for months.

    The Madoff Ponzi scheme was decades in the making and it barely scratches the surface of Wall Street corruption.

    The unholy stink that I and many,many others are getting from the financial and government sectors WILL soon be joined with the sciences, as we realize that EVERYONE in the top 25% has taken us for a ride.

    Go ahead and laugh, go ahead and tell me to calm down. Go ahead and post your worthless emoticons, rebuttals whatever the fuck. I am a layman who is reaching his limit and I am not alone.”

  39. Truthseeker Says:

    Just for the record and possible adaptation for use somewhere more worthwhile, here is the meta level polite admonition left today for the witless Washington reporter who wrote the summary of the top five Global Health issues on change.org referred to above, which failed to mention the Take a new look at the cause of AIDS issue entirely:

    “The preponderance of evidence proves conclusively that HIV causes AIDS. I think that arguing otherwise is bad for human health, and I am not going to draw attention to it.” – Alanna Shaikh

    Please be aware that the scientific literature in the form of the highest journals (Cancer Research 1987, Proceedings of the National Academy 1988, Journal of Biosciences 2003 etc) has carried an ongoing, professional peer-certified review by the most distinguished researcher in the field concerned (retroviruses) of whether HIV is the cause of AIDS since 1987, and the review has consistently rejected this claim as unproven and unjustifed, and there has been no effective refutation of its arguments or citations in any peer reviewed journal, and no rebuttal even attempted in the major journals with the exception of Nature and Science, wherein the attempted rebuttals were not peer reviewed, just as the NIAID Web page rejecting the review is not peer reviewed either.

    The overwhelming evidence against HIV as the cause of AIDS cited in these ongoing reviews is a cause for everybody to urge a public review of this issue by objective reviewers outside the field of HIV research. It is an issue of major public concern that this has not been done, but instead has been evaded by politics and tactics smearing the supporters of review as wrongly objecting to a scientifically proven claim, which is untrue – the claim is unproven and unjustified according to the professional reviews ignored in the literature.

    Lay writers such as Alanna should be aware of the true situation and not imagine that the dispute is a matter of laymen criticising good science, when in fact it is a scientific dispute in the journals with the rejecting critique 21 years old and continuing, and unanswered by any peer reviewed rebuttal. What laymen are criticising is the scientists in the field who evade the professional review rejecting their favored idea with political responses discrediting the critics.

    Such writers are unwittingly supporting bad science against good science and good scientists. What they should be asking – and what change.org should be asking – is why supposedly good AIDS scientists who say their HIV=AIDS claim is good science should need to defend and protect it with politics and attempts to discredit opponents, rather than confidently answer the critique in public and in the peer reviewed journals where the editors are still waiting for a proper response.

    All laymen and reporters who have not heard of the real extent of this dispute before should go to scienceguardian.com for extensive information on the issue, as well as aidswiki.com and other sites listed in the blogroll at scienceguardian.com. Then they should ask why it is that media from the New York Times downwards have not covered this valid scientific dispute in evenhanded fashion, but have taken sides in a matter that they are not qualified to arbitrate, since they evidently do not themselves have time to study what has been written in the journals.

    Conventional wisdom and reigning beliefs in science are constantly overturned as science progresses, for example please see the Nobels, which are often won by overturning previous mainstream beliefs.

    Posted by Anthony L on 01/02/2009 @ 03:32PM PST

  40. Cathyvm Says:

    Yes well I didn’t vote for his President Electness as a non-US citizen but admit a) would have done so had I been (what choice was there?) and b) would be (am – hell, I live in this “global society”) entirely unhappy with his picks so far.
    Change.org is nothing but a fraudulent undertaking, but change.gov seems rather bizarre in that disembodied ideas just get “voted on” with no debate, no evidence. It smacks of “what would you like from Santa for Christmas?”
    Yello thank you for your well-reasoned summation of the global crisis. As an optimist I only hope is isn’t true. I never invested a penny (or a cent, or shekel, yen, baht, lira, nuevo sol or even red herring) in a stock or share so I’m going to be really pissed if I find myself starving as a result of people that did.

  41. Truthseeker Says:

    Yello, I stand with you holding hat in hand in mourning for the inflated level of trust and confidence which floated the economy for so many happy irresponsible years till it was pricked like a gigantic barrage balloon and has not been airborne since, but still I hope for a new takeoff to a lower altitude anon.

    The Warren Buffett law of the stock market is that one keeps one’s head and buys when all around are losing or have lost theirs. It is just a very sad fact of life that trust restores at a glacial pace after being lost virtually overnight. Prices make a comeback slowly but surely over time, you can count on it. But how long? OK, this time it may be long indeed if major US auto companies implode. But will they be allowed to? And just how much can the auto market decline for a product as necessary as food and shelter to most Americans?

    Of course, for small investors who have lost a lot of money the shell shock will take a long time to wear off, and the fact is that having lost 50% of stock value, to get it all back takes a 100% gain. So all in all, if you are predicting a slow economic comeback, we agree with you. But a depression? With government willing to spend whatever it takes? With the Web connecting everything now?

    On the other side, it is true one worries every time one looks for a spare part for any piece of equipment now, since one fears that almost everything will be unavailable shortly, as peripheral suppliers go down. But then it has long seemed a miracle that one can still buy spare parts for anything. Let’s keep our fingers crossed that somehow they will survive as miraculously as they have to date. All in all this is a vast economy and there are millions and millions of relationships in place built up over years of investment of personal dealings and loyalties, and people don’t relinquish such attachments easily.

    Meanwhile the Web has enabled information to flow to a spectacularly enhanced level where the market for small businesses has expanded colossally to national and international heights undreamed of before.

    While this warp speed acceleration of connectedness has brought us the potential in finance of rapid global collapse of confidence and prices within hours or days compared with weeks or months earlier, it also has established a permanent foundation of greater national and global demand and the potential markets are bigger than ever for all businesses, so survival and comeback are enabled in a way they never were before.

    How it all will play out knows God, but there is as much reason for optimism as pessimism in our editorial opinion, and optimism feels more 21st Century. Pessimism smacks of old thinking to us, thinking that doesn’t factor in the Web. The Internet has changed everything, yet is already so familiar that we forget the degree of change it has wrought.

    The one thing that may be different is that the elite have been exposed as including bigger crooks and liars than ever revealed before, so the ongoing house cleaning may be effective and standards raised permanently by several notches. But then human nature will stay the same so perhaps it will all be more effectively concealed, that’s all.

    Besides which, capitalism may depend on a certain level of crookedness and highway robbery at all levels….

  42. jtdeshong Says:

    Cathvm,
    I was somewhat impressed by your first comment to me about your friend. I hope your friend is doing well.
    However, your next comment to me about Priscilla, Queen of the Desert, was very stupid and a very poor attempt at humor. I have grown to expect more from you.
    However, your quote of the CDC regarding pneumonia should have contained a bit more. (Although, I know it was a direct “re-thinkers” attempt to mis-quote the info) Of that, I am not surprised.
    The number you quoted, was that for ALL pneumonia deaths in 2005? If so, then I would assume, that the number is for ALL deaths of ALL ages. And therefore, I must admit, you just put a big ol’ size 14 shoe in your mouth and played right into the orthodoxy view.
    You really should do a better job next time of quoting information.
    I saw thru it and I am sure other people with even a retarded IQ saw thru it as well.
    Better luck next time.
    Sincerely,
    J. Todd DeShong
    http://www.dissidents4dumbees.blogspot.com
    Why don’t you drop by my blog and read the latest on your hero, Clark Baker?

  43. Cathyvm Says:

    Todd why don’t you ever check your facts before making a complete oily dipstick of yourself? Go to the CDC site and check for yourself. The 2,138 deaths due to pneumonia WAS in the 45-54-year age group or what would be the point of quoting it? I can’t believe anyone with any semblance of firing neurones can think that number would be total deaths due to pneumonia in a population of over 300 million!
    Total deaths for pneumonia in 2005 was 61,189 (incidentally total deaths from influenza was 1,812 – not the “OMG the sky is falling in, 35,000 deaths” the CDC trots out every year to scare up some more patsies for the flu jab).
    Todd if you didn’t KNOW what the total death number was, and are presumably too intellectually lazy to check for yourself, why ACCUSE me of “misquoting”?
    Who has the size 14 moccasin in his fat facial orifice now?
    And WTF does Clark Baker have to do with deaths due to pneumonia? Clot!

  44. Baby Pong Says:

    Well, I finished reading “The Criminal history of the Papacy” and now understand what compelled me to bring it to your attention. The parallels between the behavior of the Popes and those of the Aids establishment are striking. And among their heinous crimes was the extremely common one of conspiracy.

    Also:
    On at least one occasion a pope ordered the previous pope exhumed from his grave, then tied the corpse to a chair and put it on trial, finally pronouncing it guilty, ritually mutilating it and dumping it in the river. Something similar was done to a writer who criticized another pope.

    Sort of like what they have done to Christine.

    Pope Leo X made the following well-documented toast: “How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable of Christ has been for us and our predecessors.”

    Perhaps John Peemore, Fauci and the rest of the Hiv gang make that same toast during their secret orgies.

    Speaking of which, many of the popes held orgies in the Vatican…sometimes gay orgies. And even turned nunneries into brothels for their delectation.

    That might be excusable, depending on the circumstances, since sex is the highest expression of Goodness that we have if it’s done with mutual respect. But these popes were serving their appetites with funds extorted from the masses while simultaneously warning the masses not to indulge in the evils of the flesh.

    The author doesn’t even mention Pope Gregory IX’s contributions. Gregory said that cats were in league with the devil and ordered that all cats be tortured and killed. And how many monkeys and rabbits has Aids Inc. tortured and killed in their research labs?

    Theologian Anthony Collins wrote of the Vatican fake “Book of the Popes”: “In short, these frauds are very common in all books which are published by priests or priestly men. For it is certain they plead the authority of earlier writings that were themselves fake, forged, mangled or corrupted, with more reasons than any to support their articles of faith with sinister ingenuity.”

    Sound familiar? The citing of Gallo’s original papers, anyone? PCR? Computer modeling?

    What struck me the most was that the people of medieval Rome and the rest of Europe apparently despised the popes, even ridiculed them and drove them into exile numerous times. Pope John XII apparently died when a commoner beat him severely after the Pope raped his wife.

    Contrast that with today, when I imagine that most people have high regard for the popes. I haven’t googled it, but doubtless John Paul II is on a few “most admired” lists, despite the fact that he supported and assisted the immoral policies of the US and the power elite. Now, of course, Benedict has put him on the “fast track” to sainthood — much like Aids drugs and laws giving the president the power to bypass congress on certain issues are “fast tracked.” I guess sainthood is kind of like a Nobel Prize for priests who do David’s work here on earth.

    If those were the “dark ages” — when people were skeptical and disdainful of the powerful and corrupt — then what is this age we live in now?

  45. Truthseeker Says:

    Pong, really, when quoting from works of any kind please give proper references that allow readers to estimate the likelihood of reportorial accuracy. In this case it seems very low, given that the author Tony Bushby is an Australian, a species known for spending most of their time drinking beer and calling each other “bloody pooftas”, and he has also found time to write another questionable book called “the Bible Fraud”. It is very hard to believe that Popes had “orgies” and turned nunneries into brothels without it entering the history books supplied to every child and classroom. And that they should do so while simultaneously warning the populace against indulging in sex of any kind seems entirely unlikely since it would be inconsistent with their duties, and very likely to annoy their patron, who after all created sex to make up for poverty and ignorance.

    However it must be admitted that the behavior matches in certain respects the performance of the scientific pretenders who rule HIV/AIDS, although it is hard to imagine Anthony Fauci indulging in bestial appetites which might crease his tailoring. Gallo on the other hand has a very healthy roguishly sexual air about him, and is known to have an extended family.

    But seriously, at the very least, we must be told what documents back the allegation that “Leo X made the following well-documented toast: “How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable of Christ has been for us and our predecessors.”” Almost certainly this is not the kind of phrasing that a Pope would use. It sound like some envious anti-Church zealot floated the story as a way of getting at the head of the largest church in Christendom. Such calumny must not be repeated at this site without full references, preferably three.

    So, what are the references? Or are you just taking the word of an Australian web author on his say so?

  46. Baby Pong Says:

    TS,

    Bushby’s Criminal History of the Papacy had a lot of documentation, most of it from the church’s own sources like the Catholic Encyclopedia. I didn’t verify any of it, because I don’t have a free 300 hours or so with which to do so, so am writing on faith in this drunk Australian skeptic. I suggest that you go to this link and enter your email address, and they will email you a free e-book of the article. There are also text versions on the web but the e-book is better because it has the original illustrations.

    http://www.joshuabooks.com/index3.htm

    Read it yourself and see what you think. I see no reason to believe that he’s making it up. And as for the Bible, it very likely is a fraud, an opinion solidly based on lots of internet conspiracy surfing done over the years.

  47. Baby Pong Says:

    Another reason to suspect foul play is that the “holistic cleanse” circumstances enable the Medical Mafia to not only drop an atom bomb on us dissidents, but they also get to drop one on another of the movements they detest and are trying to destroy — alternative medicine. They kill two birds with one stone. I think that’s the way covert operations are planned…with multiple benefits to be reaped. They are very efficient and shrewd in their planning.

    Really, I would like to know how many people have ever died from a holistic cleanse? Or was Christine the first? And was it herbs that were used, or something with a bit more toxic kick? Something that would leave no traces?

  48. Truthseeker Says:

    Motivations, yes, planning, unlikely, since quite beyond the secret coordination of the numbskulls who cling to the scientifically absurd claim of HIV=AIDS. They are too busy trying to maintain funding or fending off reason from their armchairs and laptops.

    You seem to be underestimating the power of dehydration to kill. Yes it does seem unlikely that a a person extremely well informed perforce on HIV does not=AIDS should allow themselves to be misled by other quackery of the alternative kind but it seems that in this case the cleanser operative failed to take into account the possible individual response of Maggiore early enough (probably it was to say the least unusual) and the MD at least justified her mainstream training by detecting dehydration, though apparently she didn’t act with sufficient speed in applying maximum measures to counteract it. The body takes its own measures to conserve liquid when threatened in this way and unless alleviated death results.

    The impact of dehydration is a major health concern of the authorities in heat waves when the tendency of seniors to drink too little (because their sense of thirst is often impaired) can result in fatalities. Often death is preceded by dehydration in hospitals and nursing homes because oldsters stop drinking enough, and perhaps the lack of thirst is part of the normal dying mechanism. In general impaired thirst appears to be a problem with old people. Thus we have in hand a result last year where in one British nursing home a radical improvement in condition was achieved for all patients simply by ensuring they drank enough water.

    A post is in order when our research staff have completed their review of the latest literature on the topic. But it does seem that diuretic herbs are the culprit in this case.

  49. Truthseeker Says:

    “Read it yourself and see what you think. I see no reason to believe that he’s making it up. And as for the Bible, it very likely is a fraud, an opinion solidly based on lots of internet conspiracy surfing done over the years.”

    Pong, Sir, we do agree that a cursory glance at his latest E Book impressed us very much with the responsible and informed tone of Mr Bushby’s writings, but Alas! we have learned that sometimes history can be based on tall stories.

    How likely is it, for example, that a certain Pope turned out to be a woman (from England, no less) by virtue of the fact she gave birth in a procession along a route that was afterwards assiduously avoided in Papal parades, and that both she and her lover were then stoned to death by an angry and disillusioned mob.

    Or that a certain chair was designed and built (and later unearthed in the Vatican) upon which the elected Pontiff was first untrousered and placed so that his testicles hung down through a large, loo-like hole, and could be felt up by a young Papal courtier assigned to that duty, which was carried out in public and if successful would result in a loud outcry along the lines (in Latin) of “He hath both, the Lord be praised!” and the assembly would then sing two choruses of “Halleluia!

    This is the kind of absurdity purveyed in Mr Bushby’s writings which all good people know instinctively to be entertaining but false, along the lines of story telling at supper at the monastery high table when boredom would otherwise reign.

    Any Englishman immediately recognizes this to be untrue though a good yarn, because the whole point of dinner parties in the capital of the Empire (we still hold on to the Falkland Islands, let us remind you) is to get drunk on good wine and tell outrageously entertaining embroideries of this kind.

  50. Truthseeker Says:

    A quick example of the extent to which Bushby fails to check his tall tales:

    Other papal burial traditions forbid autopsies but promote displaying the corpse in state. Often the latter tradition has proven most distressing in those cases when the pope died in summer and decay quickly set in.

    Embalming has been an expertise in major civilizations since Egyptian times.

    The reference for all the above is this page which appears to be rooted in other Web pages.

  51. Truthseeker Says:

    Jon Rappoport contributed an interesting piece on vaccines and their dangers as an interview with a supposedly once highly placed but now retired vaccine researcher to Nexus Magazine, which claims on its website to be distributed on newstands all over the world.

    The magazine has a broad range of topics which will be close to the heart of many readers here, though it appears to be unrealistically critical of the fine army of established authorities and practitioners of standard medicine and other belief systems. Apparently it gives credence to flying saucer sightings and similar, which by definition are false in our book (why wouldn’t extra terrestial intelligences transporting themselves across million of light years to this planet visit Einstein or the editor of the New York Times, rather than nonentities in obscure rural settings who are able to tell them nothing about important human affairs?).

    Don’t recall ever seeing it on any NYC newsstand, though. Anyone who has see it in physical form, please advise.

  52. jtdeshong Says:

    Poor, sad, little Cathyvm,
    My “assertion”, as you call it, that most 52 year old people do not die from pneumonia is not “ridiculous”. It is the truth. Verified, as you did, with the CDC quote. If you think that less than 2,200 people in the age group of 45-54 is a big number, then you are mistaken.
    Although I know that you do not think that is a large number of deaths in that age bracket. That is what I am referring to when I say you are misquoting. Perhaps, for your edification, I should say you are “exaggerating”! Come on and admit it. The 2000 Census, at a glance, shows that the number of people 65+ is 35 Million. Therefore I would assume that the 45-54 range is greater. But let’s say it is not. If you honestly think that is a great percentage, then you need to go back to Algebra 101. Of those people who did die, it does not say what their health was. And Christine Maggiore constantly and consistently claimed to be in great health. (Just as she contended her daughter was in excellent health mere weeks before she died.)
    It is truly sad and pathetic that even in the face of Christine Maggiore’s death, you people are still hiding behind your lies and misunderstanding, therefore causing the potential deaths of countless others. Grow up.
    Also, try to become consistent. Cathyvm says CM died of pneumonia and TS says she died from dehydration caused by some “cleanse”!!!! Which is it?
    Sincerely,
    J. Todd DeShong
    And the Clark Baker comment was in hopes you might check out my blog and read the truth about one of the other RA Leaders. He is a true lying, scumbag!!
    http://www.dissidents4dumbees.blogspot.com

  53. MacDonald Says:

    Mr. Truthseeker,

    You have revealed your illogic in all its many-splendoured colours, The reason why the aliens were not visiting Einstein as an outstanding terrestrial specimen is that he was one of them. Your appaling lack of familiarity with UFO lore disqualifies you from commenting on this topic.

    It also gives reason to doubt your dismissal – based almost exclusively on the famed English common sense, which one fears might have been dulled under the Stetson you are currently sporting – of the papal bulls you have rendered above in such vivid detail.

    Contrary to your assertions, I find the theological consistency of the stories irresistible. According to the principle of once bitten twice shy, it is an almost inevitable logical step for those believers who had seen the transgendered Pope abort a child on the road to construct said chair, so as to be able to rejoice in the reassurance of His Holiness’ wholeness.

    As for the original miraculous birth inspiring the miraculous chair, such wonders are commonly seen in medical science, and if it is possible for Man, how much more likely is it not that God had chosen to show his might by blessing a former woman with at least some of the attributes of a man – which truly is a blessing – yet retaining the female’s miraculous powers of conception and birth? To wit:

    A transsexual woman who has undergone reconstructive surgery and testosterone therapy, and who calls herself a “man,” claims to be five months pregnant with a baby girl.
    Oregon resident Thomas Beatie told “The Advocate” magazine that carrying a daughter for her wife Nancy is an “incredible” experience.
    The article carried a photo showing Beatie with an enlarged midsection, purportedly the result of being pregnant. Neighbors, however, think otherwise.
    “Quite frankly, I think it’s a hoax,” neighbor Ron Schlieper told KATU News in Bend, Ore. “I saw him a few days ago and he didn’t look like that,” he said, referencing the photo posted on the Advocate.com Web site. “He was walking down the street with who I thought was his wife, Nancy, and I don’t recall seeing a belly. If that (picture was taken) a month ago, he would have been much bigger just a few days ago.”
    Schlieper said Beatie’s wife said she was pregnant, KATU News reported. Another neighbor said the couple left their house every week for fertility treatments in Portland.
    Beatie, born a woman, has had a chest reconstruction and testosterone therapy, but decided to keep her female reproductive organs. Beatie claims to have become pregnant through artificial insemination.

    Then as now, the common mob is prone to doubt, hence they mistook a miracle designed to fortify them in their faith for mean charlatanry. It is more than likely that God, on seeing this, blessed the invention of the ontologically challenged papal chair to prevent another such mistake on His part. It is well-known that God in spite of his inherent perfection is frequently obliged to correct His own mistakes. In this case He had come upon an agreeable, even pleasurable, alternative to deluge and conflagration.

    Hallelujah

  54. Truthseeker Says:

    Who is Jon Rappoport?

    Lest we be misunderstood, we are not disparaging the esteemed Pong’s suggestion that Maggiore’s death should not lead to a closer examination of how much hidden activity there is behind the scenes to protect and promote bad ideas in HIV/AIDS or anything else profitable to those in power.

    Our position is that while the details of the stories spun by critics of those in power in our highly respected institutions of religion and science such as the Vatican are probably false for the most part, often because they overestimate the cunning and organizational ability to mount secret operations of the inhabitants of such institutions, who like government officials spend most of their time we imagine consolidating their own position inside the structure rather than organizing secret plots against its outside enemies, we do absolutely credit the attention it draws to the motivations and characters of the scoundrels and rogues who vie for power and typically get it, compared to the decent people with a sense of public responsibility and genuine concern for humanity who are usually kept out.

    This is why their writings are invaluable, in our opinion: for with all their suspicion and paranoia, well founded in relation to the motivations and characters of those they are keeping an eye on, they serve as an early warning system as to what skulduggery might in fact be practiced by those they report on, if stupidity and incompetence allows it.

    The earliest detection of actual mischief comes from those who are more alert to it.

    Thus in the case of HIV/AIDS, an essentially silly scientific idea which was entirely unjustified by the papers advanced to support it became a universal belief milked for credit and funding by millions at the cost of thousands of lives. Yet most of the public is still unaware of what is going on. The early warnings of those who first saw it happening were successfully buried by the proponents of the bad notion, who easily gathered all the money available under their own paradigm umbrella.

    But who did the early warnings come from?

    After the damning reviews of HIV/AIDS carried in the scientific literature by Peter Duesberg of Berkeley, one of the earliest – perhaps the earliest – and best popular accounts of the debacle in progress was by none other than the above Jon Rappoport, in AIDS Inc: Scandal of the Century, published in 1988 by Human Energy Press in a $13.95 paperback.

    The handsomely rugged Rappoport is a freelance journalist and author who has long advocated a bunch of notions (eg suspicions of vaccines) seen by many as fringe notions in science and health, because they are alternatives to the status quo, and by now he may have left behind solid investigative reporting completely, judging by his No More Fake News web site. Partly it may be that he has simply got entirely fed up with dealing with the unimaginative and ass-covering (sorry, can’t think of the normal euphemism for this) gatekeepers of journalism, acquiring editors.

    But his interest as an independent investigative journalist has always been “who runs the world and what can we do about it?” And his AIDS Inc book was a first class expose first out of the starting gate which today is as accurate and relevant as any other critique of the shameful Enron of science, including the more than thirty books that have appeared since.

    This is why we always pay attention to the maverick, the rebel and the crackpot, and anyone else who offers an alternative to conventional wisdom – they are going to be the ones with the news, wrong and sometimes very right.

    Here is his biography from his Web site:

    Jon Rappoport has worked as a free-lance investigative reporter for 20 years.
    He has written articles on politics, health, media, culture and art for LA Weekly, Spin Magazine, Stern, Village Voice, Nexus, CBS Healthwatch, and other newspapers and magazines in the US and Europe.

    In 1982, the LA Weekly submitted his name for a Pulitzer prize, for his interview with the president of El Salvador University, where the military had taken over the campus.

    Jon has hosted, produced, and written radio programs and segments in Los Angeles and Las Vegas (KPFK, KLAV). He has appeared as a guest on over 200 radio and television programs, including ABC’s Nightline, Tony Brown’s Journal (PBS), and Hard Copy.

    In 1994, Jon ran for a seat in the US Congress from the 29th district in Los Angeles. After six months of campaigning, on a very small budget, he garnered 20 percent of the vote running against an incumbent who had occupied his seat for 20 years.

    In 1996, Jon started The Great Boycott, against eight corporate chemical giants: Monsanto, Dow, Du Pont, Bayer, Hoechst, Rhone-Poulenc, Imperial Chemical Industries, and Ciba-Geigy. The Boycott continues to operate today.

    Jon has lectured extensively all over the US on the question: Who runs the world and what can we do about it?

    For the last ten years, Jon has operated largely away from the mainstream because, as he puts it, “My research was not friendly to the conventional media.”

    Over the last 30 years, Jon’s independent research has encompassed such areas as: deep politics, conspiracies, alternative health, the potential of the human imagination, mind control, the medical cartel, symbology, and solutions to the takeover of the planet by hidden elites.

    A painter, Jon’s work has been shown in galleries in Los Angeles and New York. His poetry has been published by The Massachusetts Review.
    63 years old, he is a graduate of Amherst College (BA, Philosophy), and lives with his wife, Dr. Laura Thompson, in San Diego.

  55. Truthseeker Says:

    Truly half-witted editorial in the Los Angeles Times Jan 3: Christine Maggiore and the price of skepticism: Questioning theories is usually a healthy pursuit, but in some cases — such as Christine Maggiore’s HIV theories — the risks outweigh criticisms. on Christine Maggiore as a holdout against accepted science.

    A very fine specimen indeed of complacent myopia parading as authoritative adjudication.

    The one indisputable achievement of the HIV=AIDS claim is that it has proven how very dense the media can be, and how often. It is almost as if they were taught that critical thinking about mainstream beliefs is not “objective”. “Objective” appears to be defined as defending and rationalizing current beliefs. But perhaps this is what Mark Twain was referring to as “corn pone” opinions. Here we have “corn pone” editorializing. A grand American tradition!

    Of course Twain was referring to the “damned human race”, but surely he was mainly acquainted with his fellow Americans.

  56. Cathyvm Says:

    Not finished dancing on Christine’s grave then Todd? And save your pity for your own self you simpering poonanny.
    You asserted: “most healthy 52 year olds [sic] do NOT die from pneumonia”. Nobody said they did Mr “I can’t even construct a strawman argument coherently” DeShong – I gave you the mortality stats for pneumonia in that age group (including those for the population as a whole – how is that “misquoting?), suggesting death from pneumonia without HIV seems to be more common than deaths due to pneumonia with HIV IN THAT AGE GROUP.
    In fact is the deaths from viral hepatitis (2314) are almost exactly the same as the 2138 due to pneumonia. Are you going to claim death from viral hepatitis death is so rare in this age group as to be impossible? In which case why does EVERY child in the US need a Hep B injection at birth? You can’t have it both ways Toddler.
    Just because something is uncommon doesn’t make it impossible.
    Nor did I “claim” Christine died of pneumonia, I wouldn’t be so presumptive given there has been no autopsy yet. I merely countered your claim that pneumonia in her age group was almost impossible. I also stated the possibility of herb-induced interstitial pneumonia. The fact that we don’t know means WE DON’T KNOW – unlike you ghoulish AIDSpoof lot that have everything sewn up without benefit of autopsy or evidence.

    As for what you have or haven’t written about Clark Baker on your less than salubrious blog – I don’t give a rat’s pooh because you have shown that you are incompletely incapable of anything other than PQOTD “handwaving”.

  57. Baby Pong Says:

    TS, your supposed excerpt from Mr. Bushby’s work, about a chair where the pontiff sat with his testicles hanging through a hole so that a young Papal courtier (you didn’t mention what sex the courtier was) could help him find the ecstasy of the Lord, is completely fabricated, I believe.

    There was no such story in Bushby’s article. Why are you making up tall tales to discredit this distinguished author who seeks to bring down the mighty and corrupt with his pen?

    There is little doubt that most of his reportage is probably correct, because the church has acknowledged that many of the medieval popes were monsters, if Bushby’s documentation is real. They just forget to tell this information to the flock.

  58. jtdeshong Says:

    Typical.
    IF the autopsy does come back that she died of AIDS related pneumonia (P. jerovceci), will you at least acquiesce and admit Ms. Maggiore gave the ultimate sacrifice for her beliefs? I would say that her own child would be the ultimate sacrifice, but she has already proven to be too self centered and arrogant for that assumption. Or will you cling more steadfastly to the lies which you currently perpetuate that kill others? Also, I did not say she died of pneumonia, her husband did. It is you DENIALISTS that deny the obvious and claim some “holistic cleanse” did her in!!
    You certainly have a large vocabulary, but too bad you have not the consciouis to understand the value of the words you use and subsequently the lies you spew!
    If you did have a conscious at all, you would care about what a lying scumbag Clark Baker is as he is one of the most visible, yet blissfully ignorant leaders in the RA, to which you so graciously bow!
    Sincerely,
    J. Todd DeShong
    http://www.dissidents4dumbees.blogspot.com

  59. Truthseeker Says:

    As we recall, Bushby’s story came from the downloaded copy of the Papal Billions, reached by using the link given by your good self above, namely http://www.joshuabooks.com/index3.htm, which offers both The Criminal History of the Papacy and the Papal Billions for free download as eBooks.

    Today however the Papal Billions link instead of resulting in an immediate eBook mailing via an html page on which you click the books image, leads to a page at joshuabooks offering to sell the book for A$29.75 but apparently missing the link to download it for free.

    Backtracking is difficult after a whole day delay so the above may be wrong is some way, as far as the Papal Balls story goes. We’d heard it before, and the link we gave for it was not itself a Bushby link, you are right. Presumably it is a confusion introduced by Elex Graphic Design, who designed the Joshua Books web site and appear to be no better than any other geeky hirelings in making navigation clear.

    The whole point, however, is to emphasize the similarity between the mythmaking of the HIV/AIDS miscreants at the NIAID and Harvard, and that of established religion, wherein the adherents will not hear of any correction to the scripture.

    :When I first spoke to a close Christian friend of mine about the publishing of Tony Bushby’s The Bible Fraud, her reaction was one that many Christians have expressed, and one that made me aghast. She didn’t want the book available because it would “persuade them away from the Bible and the word of God.” Further discussions with her and many other Christians around the world about The Bible Fraud all result in the Bible being quoted as the ultimate reference for the apparent “words of God,” and therefore the basis for their arguments. The problem lies in that they believe the Bible is infallible.”

    Of course, we don’t wish to imply that the blockheaded Denialism of the HIV or Christian congregations prove their beliefs false, that is a matter of expert review. What is interesting is the phenomenon whereby any donkey with sufficient chutzpah and leadership skill can float a bad idea and get large numbers of people to believe in it, and then those large numbers of people will defend it to the utmost with all the emotion they have invested in it, to heck with factual right or wrong.

  60. hhbauer Says:

    I’ve listed under “‘AIDS’ deaths: owing to antiretroviral drugs or to lack of antiretroviral treatment?”, 2 October 2008
    http://hivskeptic.wordpress.com/2008/10/02/“aids”-deaths-owing-to-antiretroviral-drugs-or-to-lack-of-antiretroviral-treatment/
    a selection of names of prominent “HIV/AIDS activists” who died in middle age while on “life-saving” antiretroviral drugs. In “Living with HIV; Dying from What?”, 10 December 2008 http://hivskeptic.wordpress.com/2008/12/10/living-with-hiv-dying-from-what/, I report data from the National Center for Health Statistics showing that the median age of death from “HIV disease” in 2004 was **45** and that the changes in that age over the years give ZERO indication of the claims of life extension made for HAART on the basis of computer models. The NIH Treatment Guidelines (January 2008, p. 13) acknowledge that MOST deaths among HAART-treated patients are from non-AIDS events — organ failure (heart, liver, kidney) and non-AIDS cancers.

    No matter what may have caused Christine’s death — and it might be judicious to hold off commenting on it until indisputable facts about that are made public — she would not have been better off if she had gone on antiretrovirals 15 years ago.

  61. jtdeshong Says:

    Forget the Loch Ness Monster. Forget UFO’s. The above post by Henry Bauer takes the cake!
    WHAT????
    I saw his list of people who died. What a joke! Hey, Bauer, instead of just listing a bunch of names of dead people, why don’t you ACTUALLY connect the dots for once instead of just making some wild accusations and leaving your mindless readers to do it? OH, because even you know it makes absolutely NO sense what-so-ever!! God, that is so funny. As well as typical. And totally LAME!!
    Instead of actually giving facts, you make a very crazy assumption. Yes, so you listed some dead people. Some that died even BEFORE meds, i.e. Rock Hudson. Some that may not have actaully had AIDS! What you have actually done is make a great case for meds. All the people who died before meds would probably still be here if they had access to the great meds we have now.
    You also list a bunch of other people who you do not even know why they died. You just ASSUME the meds killed them. Again, how about giving some facts instead of just a wild “theory”! Hey, maybe your friend, Nessie ate them while they were swimming!!
    Also, you do not even list how long the people lived. How long they took meds. WHAT meds they took. HEY, NEWS FLASH, AZT is NOT the only medication around anymore!!
    You also make a great case for WHY Ms. Maggiore is dead: i.e. she refused to take meds!!
    Jesus, how pathetically sad!! Actually, it’s not sad to me at all. I am laughing harder at Bauer than the new Colber Report, which is now Colmes and Colbert!!! But I bet you guys do not even know Colbert and Colmes is a JOKE!! Oh, I can’t breath!!
    Sincerely,
    J. Todd DeShong
    http://www.dissidents4dumbees.blogspot.com

  62. Truthseeker Says:

    What caused Christine’s death is a matter between her and her family, wouldn’t you agree, Professor Bauer, for there is no question it was not caused by HIV, and no question that it was not caused by the rule of the HIV/AIDS paradigm if she did not take antiretroviral drugs.

    Your research is independently important in confirming that ARV’s do no patient any good and that under their medication they overwhelmingly die of symptoms of drugs not of HIV.

    A list of HIV/AIDS activists who died under “life saving” HAART medication of such symptoms is important, since it can be set beside the efforts of HIV/AIDS activists to list anti-HIV/AIDS activists who have died supposedly of HIV, all of the latter as misleading as their effort now to add Maggiore to the list.

    The bottom line is that no one dies of HIV and many thousands have died of HAART, it is clear, even if sturdy specimens such as Magic Johnson manage to keep going (almost certainly by taking drug holidays etc).

    But how does one explain to a President Clinton that the “drugs don’t work”, when the “drugs do work” is his rationale for crediting the HIV paradigm, despite Mbeki’s refusal to do so, and despite the alternative explanations available for temporary improvements in perceived health when initially taking ARVs??

  63. jtdeshong Says:

    Truthseeker,
    You are just as funny as Bauer. And just as culpable in the deaths of hundreds of thousands!
    You are a DENIALIST!! No getting around it with that laughable statement above!! “No one dies of HIV”!! You need to learn to read and understand the literature, my friend!!
    And how in your twisted world do you attempt to correlate whatever you may think of President Clinton’s beliefs with Mbeki’s actions? It just makes no sense. Well, in your world of getting on one knee for Bauer, as well as claiming that “no one has died from HIV”, I guess it does make sense. I stand corrected!!
    Sincerely,
    J. Todd DeShong
    http://www.dissidents4dumbees.blogspot.com

  64. Cathyvm Says:

    Well Todd, you don’t so much mince your words as macerate them do you? AZT may not be the “only” medication around any more but it is still the mainstay of HAART – especially if you are a poor Black African. And especially bad news if said Black Africans happen to be anaemic.

    “Anemia was a strong predictor of mortality in our study. Patients with severe anemia had nearly 15 times higher risk of dying during the first year on ART compared to those with a normal hemoglobin level. Several studies from Europe and North America have shown that anemia is an independent predictor of mortality in patients on ART, even after controlling for CD4 cell count and viral load [22-24]. Recently, studies from developing countries have found the same association [9,13]. Indeed, in the largest African cohort study published to date, severe anemia (hemoglobin <8 g/dL) was the strongest independent predictor of mortality in 16 198 patients receiving ART in Zambia [13].”[1]

    The death rate for severely anaemic patients was 55% over 24 months – compared with 3.6% for patients without anaemia. And half of them died in the first three months.

    The drug regimen:
    “First-line treatment comprised stavudine (d4T) or zidovudine (ZDV), combined with lamivudine (3TC), and either nevirapine (NVP) or efavirenz (EFV).”

    Think Toddy (if you can) anaemia vs no anaemia – 15-fold difference, well nourished vs malnourished – 3-fold difference, WHO stage I-II vs IV – 4.5-fold difference.
    So malnutrition and later disease stage pale into insignificance compared to anaemia as predictive of risk of mortality. So unless you can prove to me there is a special strain of haemoglobin-sucking vampire HIV lurking in Africa the ONLY other explanation is that bone marrow-destroying drugs are really, really deadly to anaemic, malnourished Africans.

    Mmm – I wonder how many South Africans are anaemic??? I’ll be checking that out next.

    And please Todd, stop with the PQOTD hysteria, it was mildly entertaining at first but now it’s really, really old and tired. Olivia might like it, but dogs find odour of rotting dead fish entertaining so I wouldn’t be using her as the litmus test.

    1. Johannessen, A., et al., Predictors of mortality in HIV-infected patients starting antiretroviral therapy in a rural hospital in Tanzania. BMC Infect Dis, 2008. 8: p. 52.

  65. Cathyvm Says:

    From a tribute to Rock Hudson on Larry King live:
    “LIZ SMITH, HUDSON’S LONG-TIME FRIEND: Well, I had sort of been monitoring the last day’s of his illness, after he was returned — remember the horrible footage of them bringing him off of a plane? He had gone to France, I think, to try for some radical treatment, and he never was, you know, well after that, or even — hardly well enough to have friends. Though he did have many friends that visited him in the end.”

    What do you suppose that experimental “treatment” was Todd? Hmmmm?

    Did they know about the “miraculous benefits” of AZT in 1985? You betchya, wink, wink![1]

    1. Mitsuya, H., et al., 3′-Azido-3′-deoxythymidine (BW A509U): an antiviral agent that inhibits the infectivity and cytopathic effect of human T-lymphotropic virus type III/lymphadenopathy-associated virus in vitro. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A, 1985. 82(20): p. 7096-100.

  66. Truthseeker Says:

    “No one dies of HIV”!! You need to learn to read and understand the literature, my friend!!
    And how in your twisted world do you attempt to correlate whatever you may think of President Clinton’s beliefs with Mbeki’s actions? It just makes no sense. “

    As we tried to helpfully inform you before. DeShong, you are out of your league here. As one of the proponents of a theory that never had a prayer of passing the inspection of anyone intelligent, you will only hurt your brain if you attempt to catch up now.

    Far better, DeShong, that you sink back into your uncomprehending trust in a scientifically vapid paradigm which dictates giving monstrously deleterious medications to those who need treatment for different ailments than the harmless status of supposedly once having been exposed to HIV which is no longer present.

    You can spend your time usefully by coming up with an explanation here as to how a virus which is no longer effectively present in a body can possibly harm it, which your fellow paradigm club members haven’t yet found.

    Otherwise you would have to ask your God for forgiveness for being part of such a dangerously ignorant superstition that nothing can forgive it, even the possession of a small brain that hurts more than Poohs when it has to decide whether Peter Duesberg is more likely to be right than Robert Gallo.

    But don’t attempt to understand what is going on here, since it is beyond you even to apprehend the fact that Mbeki realized the only way in which he could be helped by Clinton was to accept money which could perhaps be diverted to more useful activities than saving his people from a superstition which proved that Westerners were often stupider than the average untrained African.

  67. jtdeshong Says:

    Cathyvm,
    You are truly a HYPOCRITE!!! Yes, indeed. How can you complain, and berate me and others for “making assumptions about how Chrstine Maggiore died. I (cathyvm, Miss Perfect, will wait for the autopsy)
    Yet, you all but come right out and say (because it is more comfortable for you to cast assumptions) that the “treatment” Rock Hudson had was AZT!!! God, this is sooo easy. You denialist continually prove time and time again what hypocrites and liars you are!!
    And again, AZT is NOT a mainstay of treatment. I have NEVER been on AZT. No one I know has been. However, it is still around, therefore it must be helping someone. But you denialist will do what you do best…deny that it helps anyone. Yes, if a drug only kills everyone, that just means more people will take it!!! Just think about your logic for a minute.
    Or do you even know what logic is????????
    As for you TS, Yes, I am out of my league, as I am not a retarded, superficial idiot who believes whatever is fed to him by Henry Bauer et al as you pathetic souls are!!!
    I truly worry about your sanity as well as your day to day lives. Do you hide from your neighbors and only go to the store late, late at night?
    God, these conversations with you all make me soooooooo glad that I am me, and you all are strangers living (hopefully) very, very far from me!!!!!!!!
    With human love and kindness,
    J. Todd DeShong
    http://www.dissidents4dumbees.blogspot.com
    P.S. Why does this site only have TS, MacDonald, Cathyvm and Pongo? Is this some sad, little knitting club for retards????

  68. MacDonald Says:

    Trott,

    Why is it only Anonymous, Anonymous and Anonymous that are posting at your site? Are you all alcoholics or something?

  69. jtdeshong Says:

    Cahtyvm,
    I said nothing about anemia.
    What is your point?
    Why would you bring up a point that I did NOT bring up?????
    Is it just an attempt to bring up something that has ZERO do with the topic?
    I question your braing waves, or lack there of.
    Sincerely,
    J. Todd DeShong
    http://www.dissidents4dumbees.blogspot.com

  70. Truthseeker Says:

    My fond nitwit DeShong, you are doing an excellent job in proving HIV-heads are idiots of a charming kind, and we promise never to give away your secret, that the closet dissidents pretending to be HIV-heads but shamed into secret mole-like actions to acknowledge the utter lack of credibility of HIV-nuttiness and its danger to the public, such as John P. Moore, have expanded by one.

  71. Cathyvm Says:

    No Todd it was HPA-23 – but then you knew that because that’s how you refuted it NOT. However, Dr Michael Gottlieb was treating him in the US; hmmm, I wonder what he “treated” him with?
    Just speculating and making assumptions on the “other” side is kind of annoying huh?

    Hmm why did I bring up the anaemia (not very good at the old lateral thinking are we Todd?) – weeeeeel, you AIDSGoof types claim “we” killed hundreds of thousands in SA (this is where I’ll emulate you and do my PQOTD waving my hands in the air and screeching hysterically, wild eyeball movements, trembling lower lip etc.). If you take anaemia and its INCREDIBLY high mortality rate very early in ARV treatment, how many do you reckon your ARVs would save again (more PQOTD silliness, only this time I’m stamping my foot too)?

    It’s probably quite a good thing that I don’t have braing waves – sound seriously fatal to me. And it’s “thereof” not “there of”. Really Toddly – did you even pass your GED or whatyamacallit?

    Haha now I’m on to you. You’re just posing as an Establishment goon to get free English lessons aren’t you?

  72. cervantes Says:

    Mr. DeShong, Perhaps some facts you are not aware of regards the extremely toxic drugs given in panic from 1982 to 1986 to many thousands of frantic, mostly gay guys, and supplied by not just black market sources, but also by many informal “Trials” mainly in NY City, San Francisco General Hospital, and Los Angeles.

    It is my assessment that these drugs in fact, in a vicious circle, and later fueled by Gallo’s specious claim of his ‘retrovirus’ being a deadly pathogen, then bringing on FDA’s approval for zidovudine (AZT) in March, 1987, kept the fatalities growing ever larger (As an aside, if you think zidovudine is anything other than lethal if taken non-stop, then you should review the oceans of even establishment articles citing its dangers).

    You might also be made aware that as early as the Summer of 1985, zidovudine (called Compound S) was formally given to many patients at the National Cancer Institute in Bethesda, Maryland by non other than Sam Broder et at. a long time before its formal Trial (this is well documented), and that literally 4,800 people were distributed free-of-charge Compound S as a compassionate drug even before the FDA approved it. It’s about time you educated yourself as to the history of all this, and there are many books (with real sources/references) on this. It is now pretty much fact that those who kept on their zidovudine inevitably, and pretty quickly, died.

    At any rate, here is a list of very toxic drugs given very liberally by real doctors, and many in “guerilla clinics” (promoted and supplied greatly by Project Inform’s Martin Delaney) that by their lethal effects fueled ever higher the panic in the mid-1980′s (In particular, since you brought it up, Rock Hudson was front page news flying off to France for the drug HPA-23, that quickly brought about his death (in my view).

    The List of some of the drugs – you can look up their lethal ‘side effects:’

    Dextron Sulfate
    Ganciclovir
    Fluconzole
    Suramin
    Interleukin I
    Interleukin II
    Daunorubicin
    Epirubicin
    Pentosan
    Compound Q
    Pentamidine
    Mitoxantrone
    Vincristine
    HPA-23
    Interferon-beta
    Piritrexim
    Imuthiol
    AL 721
    Trimetraxate
    Ribavirin
    Inteferon alfa
    Bleomycin
    Idarubicin
    Danazol

    Also, I will not belabor the readers of this website with the scores of names of real doctors and scientists that administered these drugs, but their journal papers have been published going back to the early 1980′s.

    Hopefully, everybody, this will clear the air? (but probably not)

    Regards to all, Cervantes

  73. jtdeshong Says:

    Cervantes,
    First, let me thank you for your seemingly geniune response, without any snide bullshit.
    I would also like to admit (as many people here like to act as if they know everything, and never admit a weakness) but I am not familiar with these drugs. I could look them all up, but truly, I do not have the time. However, from your post, my initial response is that I do not feel that it supports the “re-thinkers” view. My thinking is that, as you even write, these drugs were administered in the 80′s via “guerilla clinics”. In the 80′s, we knew very little about this scourge, and those afflicted, were desperate for any and everything they could get their hands on. With that in mind, I feel that we are better off now (25 years later) with this knowledge. I hate that the early people diagnosed with this disease had to go thru what they did, and I was very close to a few of those people myself. All of which are dead. Now, are they dead from AZT and IL-3 and HPA-23 etc…OR the depletion of their T-cells? And have we applied what we learned from those early deaths to where we are now?
    I hope we have. I want to believe that my great friend, Joe VanHorn, did not die in vain.
    Also, what I was trying to point out about Henry Bauer’s list of those who died, is that we do not know exactly what drugs they were taking, if any at all. Also, it was in the early stages of the disease. Even those who were during the middle times, we do not know what they were taking, how often they truly adhered to the regime, what else they did in their private lives etc… However, what we do know is, for a recent example, what Christine Maggiore was doing. Per her very admission, she was taking great care of herself and was always in great health. Yet she died of pneumonia, per her own words in an email two weeks prior posted by Celia Farber. CM admitted to having pneumonia and to being winded and having no appetite etc…
    Henry Bauer’s llist did ONLY that: listed people who died of a deadly illness. He did not write about the specific drugs they were on, if any at all. Bauer did not write if they took the meds as directed. THAT is where my problem lies. IF Bauer actually took the time to research those parameters, then his arguement would be stronger. However, he does what many of his ilk do, they just write, and let the reader make the assumptions they lead them to. In my opinion, that is cowardice to the extreme. If there is one complaint about me, (and trust me, there are many…even from my friends haha) and it is that I am too explicit in my explainations. And that is because I want the reader to know exactly what my beliefs are.
    Again, thak you, Cervantes for your geniune response.
    Please, please, drop by my blog and give me your TRUE emotions in your name, Cervantes.
    J. Todd DeShong
    http://www.dissidents4dumbees.blogspot.com

  74. MacDonald Says:

    Trott,

    Thank you for your hearfelt and genuine invitation to Cervantes to post on your blog under her real name, which just happens to be A. Anonymous. This is why she has had to use a pseudonym in order not to confuse people like you. But I guess it would make her fit right in among your readership.

    Trott, I would like to take this rare moment of true conciliation and brotherhoood to remind you that you haven’t yet posted your own obituary here. What’s the matter, don’t you feel inspired?

  75. jtdeshong Says:

    Why would I post my obit?
    I am more alive than you ever could imagine.
    I lead a life of truth, leading others to the reality of life saving validation and hope for a time when we all come together with truth. And those who dispense lies and condemnation are sequestered to the realm of the abyss of sadness and loneliness. A place I am sure most of those who post here, dwell in their hearts.
    As long as people like me, who have the security to admit their weaknesses and celebrate their triumphs exist, those like you will be relegated to sites such as this, where the same five people continuously stroke the egos of those like them: the less intelectually gifted.
    Sincerely,
    J. Todd DeShong
    http://www.dissidents4dumbees.blogspot.com

  76. MacDonald Says:

    Trott,

    Posting your obituary was supposed to be a practical exercise with a didactic aim. Have you forgotten so soon? You had certain problems understanding what has been written about Christine Maggiore and why. That’s why you should write your own obituary, so you could get a better understanding both of how it is to be dead and the process of writing about it.

    Trott, you might think you are alive and celebrating your own weaknesses, but ask yourself this, can anyone truly be said to have lived before he has written his own obituary? It is a great gift I am giving to you.

  77. Cathyvm Says:

    Here lies Todd
    With his self-love bod
    Thought he was God
    Though more of a plod

    Here lies DeShong
    He always was wrong
    His tirades were tres long
    His language too strong

    Here lies Priscilla
    Thought HIV was a killa’
    Left bite marks in the pilla’
    And his life was no real thrilla’

    There you are Todd – I saved you the trouble.

  78. jtdeshong Says:

    Cathyvm,
    Thank you. That did save me the trouble. It would have taken me years to write something that lame and pathetic. Glad to know it took you mere seconds!! Have you seen that “poem” at my blog? I bet you wrote it!! It’s almost as bad as the one above.
    Are you really a good mother? Are you teaching them to hate as you do?
    J. Todd DeShong
    http://www.dissidents4dumbees.blogspot.com

  79. jtdeshong Says:

    OH, and Truthseeker,
    In a previous post you promised to link to the cure for AIDS.
    After someone asked you why wait? Just post it now. You gave some lame excuse about how this blogsite takes it’s time to “get accurate information” or some drivel.
    Now, there is a link to the Cure, but it has been taken down?
    What UP? You just taunting us? OR were you wrong AGAIN????
    J. Todd DeShong
    http://www.dissidents4dumbees.blogspot.com

  80. Cathyvm Says:

    Ah well Toddle – if the epthetical epitaph cap fits…

  81. Cathyvm Says:

    Arrgh, my eyes, my eyes. I missed an “i”!

  82. Nick Naylor Says:

    “While this warp speed acceleration of connectedness has brought us the potential in finance of rapid global collapse of confidence and prices within hours or days compared with weeks or months earlier, it also has established a permanent foundation of greater national and global demand and the potential markets are bigger than ever for all businesses, so survival and comeback are enabled in a way they never were before.”

    If only it could be so simple …

    ****

    An economic thought experiment in the form of a statement and two questions:

    Industries employing engineers currently un- or under-employed would help solve house-price deflation.

    What part of Chicago Theory specifies a “market” for an electric car and how does this theory fit the “data” of GM’s pulling it from the market?

    Is planning and implementation by the federal government required for a transition to “battery-switch stations” or refueling-without-gasoline?

    ****

    TS, while I appreciate gentlemanly optimism and the “acceleration of connectedness” alas, there is scant evidence that it will constitute a revival of American INDUSTRY, so necessary in the opinion of many for economic recovery.

    I would look to more pragmatic types, like pessimist Mort Zuckerman of McGlaughlin Group, for realistic appraisals of the next few years rather than “supply side” fairy tales from the likes of George Gilder. Wha happen to his predicted endless prosperity based on this “acceleration of connectedness”?

    Why not say that in theory markets appear unlimited but always wind up quite constrained for a variety of technical and cultural reasons? This is perhaps not “science” but common sense.

    You must be aware by now that aoc led to toxic assets on American bank balance sheets exported to major international banks. You can say this unleashing of banks looked like a limitless horizon. But the current contraction appears now as a severe bottleneck on demand and LOSS OF TRUST not easily overcome by “communication”.

    So one can foresee a major constraint on potential markets for American businesses for many years to come. Add other constraints in this category to the mix, e.g. hazardous products from China.

    Thus, another “faith bubble” should be burst at this point regarding unregulated markets.

    (Gasp, could I mean that certain businesses would benefit from economic planning?)

  83. Truthseeker Says:

    Nick, it is time to put together some figures to show how in many parameters the decline in market and market prices is really rather low. But your point that trust is bust and has no theoretical floor is very true, and combined with rapid electronic transactions is surely the reason for the market volatility day by day. But surely the outlook for the immediate future is dependent on how we get along now with whatever busted trust we have in hand. Are the Chinese really going to stop supporting the US economy by buying Treasury bills to enable the horrendous trade deficit which resulted from an overpriced dollar which enabled US consumers to enjoy ever cheaper laptop DVD players etc? One suspects not. What else do the Chinese have to support their expansion other than US demand? What the $500 trillion global derivative pyramid will deflate to is the bigger question, Presumably since no one really knows what these are “really” worth it will sit around forever without being traded down to some drastic amount smaller, as long as you don’t tell anybody about it.

    What the economy can “really” output and what it will output at “full employment” and what demand for output “really” is, is surely a matter of real factors like shelter and food, so lack of confidence and belt tightening can take it down only so far, unless fear and panic rule. These days information is a a real factor for most of us too – we need our computers and access to the Net etc as much as we need food and drink.

    However one should really compile the figures before thinking about the future for the economy, and that is our plan, but we already suspect people might be amazed how small the slowdown really is. Take any figure quoted in the nightly news cast and you often find the percentages are really quite low. Let’s see.

  84. Truthseeker Says:

    For example, over at the New York Times. predicted to die in May in a piece in Atlantic by Michael Hirschorn, New York Magazine this week says all the wonderful new bells and whistles added to its Web site recently may harbinger its survival – Goosing the Gray Lady

    This past year has been catastrophic for the New York Times. Advertising dropped off a cliff. The stock sank by 60 percent, and by fall, the paper had been rated a junk investment, announced plans to mortgage its new building, slashed dividends, and, as of last week, was printing ads on the front page. So dire had the situation become, observers began to entertain thoughts about whether the enterprise might dissolve entirely—Michael Hirschorn just published a piece in The Atlantic imagining an end date of (gulp) May. As this bad news crashed down, the jackals of Times hatred—right-wing ideologues and new-media hecklers alike—ate it up, finding confirmation of what they’d said all along: that the paper was a dinosaur, incapable of change, maddeningly assured as it sank beneath the weight of its own false authority.

    And yet, even as the financial pages wrote the paper’s obit, deep within that fancy Renzo Piano palace across from the Port Authority, something hopeful has been going on: a kind of evolution. Each day, peculiar wings and gills poke up on the Times’ website—video, audio, “drillable” graphics. Beneath Nicholas Kristof’s op-ed column, there’s a link to his blog, Twitter feed, Facebook page, and YouTube videos. Coverage of Gaza features a time line linking to earlier reporting, video coverage, and an encyclopedic entry on Hamas. Throughout the election, glittering interactive maps let readers plumb voting results. There were 360-degree panoramas of the Democratic convention; audio “back story” with reporters like Adam Nagourney; searchable video of the debates. It was a radical reinvention of the Times voice, shattering the omniscient God-tones in which the paper had always grounded its coverage; the new features tugged the reader closer through comments and interactivity, rendering the relationship between reporter and audience more intimate, immediate, exposed…..

    “The proposal was to create a newsroom: a group of developers-slash-journalists, or journalists-slash-developers, who would work on long-term, medium-term, short-term journalism—everything from elections to NFL penalties to kind of the stuff you see in the Word Train.” This team would “cut across all the desks,” providing a corrective to the maddening old system, in which each innovation required months for permissions and design. The new system elevated coders into full-fledged members of the Times—deputized to collaborate with reporters and editors, not merely to serve their needs….

    In the aftermath of the pinch-me meeting, the group began launching a series of audacious new features. The year before, they had developed Casualties of War, the website’s first “database-driven, outward-facing application,” which had debuted on December 31, 2006, the date U.S. military fatalities in Iraq reached 3,000. The project combined graphics, databases, and audio—but putting it together was “total torture,” Pilhofer tells me with a laugh, recalling weeks of scratch-coding. “It feels like dog years since then.”

    Casualties of War featured three tabs. On the first, Faces, the reader confronted one large black-and-white soldier’s face: a raw and isolated image. A second glance revealed that first image to be made up of smaller pixels, and when you ran your mouse over the surface, each revealed another name and date. Click that pixel, and the central photo changed to the new soldier. A search engine allowed readers to find individuals by name or hometown. Grim and elegant, it aimed to “show one person, but give the feeling that they’re one of many,” says Dance.

    A second tab, Analysis, contained an enormous cache of data, graphically displayed: deaths by age, race, branch of service. You could mouse over a map with deaths by province, or isolate incidents, like the second invasion of Fallujah. A time line with a movable “scrubber” let readers compress the scope of information. The final tab, Their Stories, was frankly narrative, with audio interviews with family and colleagues, the equivalent of clips from a reporter’s recorder—a different effect than reading quotes, less curated, more emotional.

    Casualties of War won a Malofiej International Infographics Award, and set the stage for experiments with storytelling in the Times voice. There were video features of Darfur’s Generation X and of the “Vows” column; a dizzying tour through the Met’s Greek and Roman galleries; a partnership with the site Bloggingheads, which streams webcam discussions among pundits and activists. Some attempts were downright weird, like the Pogue-o-matic, a hologrammish feature in which an antic David Pogue analyzed new technology. Others fell flat, like TimesPeople, a rudimentary social-networking site.

    Perhaps most interesting, there were data dumps of documents. As Guantánamo records emerged, the Times’ website posted the entire set of legal documentation, affixed to a search engine. Readers could click on William Glaberson’s reportage, but they could also dive into original materials, searching for a particular word or prisoner amid transcripts of legal hearings.

    “In the early days, the attitude ranged from a few early adopters to, at the opposite end, the hostile people,” Jonathan Landman tells me of the cultural transition at the paper. “Now at the adoption end are a lot of people—and at the hostility end, almost nobody. Well, so few it’s of no importance.”

    Of course, despite this massive cultural shift, no one had yet figured out how to, in that hideous term, “monetize” online readers—a massive 20 million unique visitors per month compared with the daily print edition’s readership of 2.8 million (4.2 million on Sundays). Still, as Landman puts it with a certain delicacy, “We’re trying very hard to protect it, because that’s where the action is.”….

  85. Nick Naylor Says:

    TS, your points are well taken.

    However, the term bubble is used for a reason, to provide a clear picture of the meaning of the current housing-price decline.

    Did you see the “60 Minutes” show on speculators and the price of oil? It would be worthwhile to excerpt the transcript here, don’t you think?

    I believe Mort Zuckerman has more to say on subject “how in many parameters the decline in market and market prices is really rather low” than McGlaughlin soundbites.

    This is to say decades-old controversies over asset valuation, speculation and the like are not settled matters; these “numbers debates” usually get very hairy and like our favorite subject, border on the impenetrable. Of course you should dig out different sets of numbers against the “bubble theory”; how can they not shine a light?

    And I especially appreciate that you brought up the derivatives figure, at least an order of magnitude greater than the entire world’s GDP!

    How does one wrap their mind around that?

    I’ve heard the analogy of a financial nuclear bomb, that the bulk of it is “churn” and a “real number” would be 10% of 600 trillion.

    So yeah, at least there should be guaranteed employment for expert number crunchers.

    In that vein, check out the latest issue of the American Prospect, especially the article on Obama’s chief numbers guy.

  86. cervantes Says:

    Greetings, Hillary Clinton in her extensive (lovefest) confirmation hearing to be Secretary of State stated explicitly that HIV/AIDS in Africa had been (and will be) a wonderful success as to getting ARV drugs to the stricken – and that PEPFAR was a super program (which, by the way, will be $47 billion over the next 5 years, much for the ARV toxic drugs). Ironically, her position is a rare compliment to President Bush!

    So – Anybody on this website might attempt to reach Hillary as to the PEPFAR mistake. This will be, of course, unlikely, as this site has already documented how Bill is happy to proceed as a hero with his efforts to get the ARVs to Africa (and not rethink his ignorant position).

    But, one never knows, and perhaps Hillary can be enlightened. Hope somebody can get through her handlers — go for it.

  87. jtdeshong Says:

    Oh Truthseeker,
    Where is that cure for AIDS that you promised us?
    I’m waiting?
    Or are you just ignoring that which you can not explain?
    Truthseeker…yeah, right!!! hahahahaaa
    Sincerely,
    J. Todd DeShong

  88. Truthseeker Says:

    The cure for AIDS? Eat wisely, exercise judiciously, and abjure drugs of any kind, but especially the drugs peddled under the aegis of a false paradigm which convinces only the scientifically illiterate, and do not listen to MDs and other authorities who draw their information only from scientists who ignore their own literature.

    Not aware. Mr Deshong, that this conclusion was not already evident from the scientific literature with which we assumed you were familiar, or its popular representation on this blog.

    Are you not a reader of such reference material?

    Do you in fact eat properly? Are you aware that beetroot is actually a valuable food, and why? Why do we suspect that you favor sodas and slices of pizza? Are you aware that a typical soda contains 25 grams of sugar per serving, ie 50 grams of sugar a can?

    Perhaps if you switch to drinking wisely you would be able to think and read more profitably, by which we do not mean monetary profit.

  89. jtdeshong Says:

    Ah, Truthseeker,
    Are you greasy all over? You must be, the way you slipped out of that one. You know from the post I made previously to what I was referring. Of course you just completely avoided answering that time.
    Now how about actually being a decent human being (for a change) and take some responsibility. Why would you promise to reveal the cure for AIDS, provide a link, and then disable the link? Is it because the link is just as big a fake and phony as you?
    Sincerely,
    J. Todd DeShong
    http://www.dissidents4dumbees.blogspot.com

  90. Baby Pong Says:

    Who recommended to Christine that she get this radical cleanse?
    Who was the “cleanse doc”? What is his or her history and qualifications?
    Has anyone ever gotten so sick before from a cleanse?
    Do x-rays exist confirming her pneumonia?
    Did anyone do an autopsy?
    Did anyone do a lymphocyte count?
    What becomes of her suit against the coroner? Can survivors continue a lawsuit? (If it was a lawsuit, maybe it was something else)
    Can anyone bring us up to date?

  91. Baby Pong Says:

    Radiation poisoning might explain most of Christine’s symptoms. It induces nausea, dehydration, insomnia and damaged immunity. Might there have been some acutely radioactive substance mixed in with the herbs used in her holistic cleanse?

  92. little_nell Says:

    The serial killer known as Martin Delaney had died. He is being called a hero, yet he murdered unknown numbers of desperate gay men with Compound Q (an abortion drug) and other experimental and toxic concoctions. Putting himself at no risk whatsoever while doling out the poison, he created a wonderful career for himself and others. He whored himself to the drug companies and got millions in grants for “Project Inform.”
    He blatantly lied in court and made up stories about activists who questioned his motives.

  93. Baby Pong Says:

    What a fitting end for Delaney. He fell victim to the same kinds of drugs — chemotherapy — that he pushed on unfortunate misdiagnosed Hiv people. (I am assuming he had chemo). I guess it’s true that these arrogant deluded people drink their own poison.

  94. pluscachange Says:

    Baby Pong,

    I too had the same initial hunch when I heard that Ms Maggiore had died. I found it odd that she and her child were now both dead in the span of a few years. And she was to testify in court a few days later, you state? Even if one subscribes to the utterly corrupt and compromised AIDS paradigm, neither of them seem to have been ill for very long. So quick death is now an AIDs death, at least in the corporate media?!? Anyway, when I heard this tragic news, I could not resist to think that she MAY have been murdered. It is just a hunch but she was a titan of the AIDS Rethinkers and she had stepped on some very powerful toes. Don’t laugh but I had the same strange feeling when I heard that the darling of tabloid journalism Anna Nichol and her son had died within a short period of time. People with money and power will sometimes do anything to keep it–history is replete with examples. Of course, it is just a feeling-no proof and I will not hold my breath waiting for a piece of honest journalism from the stenographers of the corporate media. It is like the feeling a police detective gets when they come upon a death and they find out that the deceased was involved in a bitter court case. Or a relative stands to gain handsomely from the death. But again, just a hunch. Would people who give out toxic AIDS drugs for cash be capable of something like this? Lastly, as a student of the Middle Ages, I too feel, like you, …….plus ca change.

  95. MacDonald Says:

    Pong, Delaney died of liver cancer. This was after a history not of HIV, but of Hep B infection (for those who believe in that) and, I guess, treatment.

    It is “fitting” because it reminds the vultures feeding on Maggiore’s corpse that everybody dies, even those on life-saving drugs, and gives them something else to chatter about for awhile. But as anybody can assure him/herself by scanning the dissident sites, we are not the ones doing the grave dancing.

  96. Baby Pong Says:

    What, Pluscachange, are you suggesting that good grey-suited eminences would murder most foul? Are you saying that one should ask “who benefits” when someone dies? You, my dear sir, are a conspiracy theorist!

    Everybody knows that the good Harvard-educated folks from the intelligence community would never murder for political purposes. They get the mafia to do it for them.

    And speaking of Harvard alums, Honest Abe Obama is now officially a war criminal. He ordered Pakistan bombed and killed over 20 villagers. All in his first week in office. He certainly is a whirlwind.

  97. cervantes Says:

    Perfect poetic justice: Per 1/27/09 LA Times obit, Martin Delaney dying of Hep B.

    I would bet my ’73 VW Poptop Westphalia Camper Delaney was literally killed by the ravages of Hep B drugs ok’ed by the FDA in July, 2005. To wit: interferon, peginterferon (pegylated, don’t ask), lamivudine, adefovir, entecavir – that Delaney no doubt had faith in, and took with his blind faith in drugs. If anybody cares to know, almost nobody dies from Hep B, unless they have had scores of years of of pitchers of martinis, injecting drug abuse, etc. – or drug therapies that Delaney most likely was happy to receive.

    The Hep B drugs are precisely in the families of drugs Delaney smuggled/beg/borrowed/stole and promoted/delivered to thousands, in addition to the AZT (Compound S) he wrangled for even more thousands of “hiv” patients in the mid-1980′s. Thus, he was maybe the premiere fire-starter, and gasoline-poured-on pyromaniac for whole Hiv=AIDS=Death blunder.

    His LA Times obit mentions a Rogue’s Gallery of HIV’s Josef Mengele contemporaries set upon us, and thriving with ever more power and funding.

    A note to MacDonald: re your Jan. 8th comment, I would remind our webmaster (and you) that it is not appropriate to pretend you represent my pseudonym (mentioned by you as “A Anonymous”); thanks, however, for all your contributions.

    Happy VW trails, Cervantes

  98. MacDonald Says:

    C.,

    I don’t think I understand what you mean by “representing your pseudonym”. I gave A. Anonymous as your real name, and female as your gender.

    Just to make sure I won’t refer to either again, and state for the record – and Todd Deshong, who probably believes now that your name really is Anonymous – that I have no clue about your identity or which pseudonyms you may or may not use elsewhere.

    Thank you yourself for your contributions.

  99. pluscachange Says:

    Baby Pong

    Yes, guilty as charged. Who is not a conspiricy theorist these days with the Madoff’s and Gallo’s of this world running around stuffing their pockets? In these times, to ask “who benefits” is just common sense. Indeed, to be called a CT is almost a badge of honor. Anyway, Bush, Madoff, Gallo ad nauseum have made me so skeptical that an autopsy report vis-a-vis Ms. Maggiore might have to be signed by God Him/Herself for me to believe it. Sad isn’t it?

  100. Baby Pong Says:

    No, Pluscachange, it’s not sad that you’ve become very skeptical. It’s great news.

    Now if only we could spread your mental illness (and mine) to the masses, we’d get somewhere.

  101. gangstalking Says:

    Hi Baby Pong,

    Your posts make a great deal of sense. I remember reading that EJ had died, and I wondered if there was more to her death. I think she died around the time Christine and her family were all set to do the movie about living alive and well. I can’t recall the name of the documentary.

    I thought there might be more to the child’s death but to suggest that to a mother that was grieving for her child seemed cruel. She was so saddened by EJ’s death.

    I understand that we live in a world of conspiracies. Christine more than anyone that I can recall was a symbol for a movement, she made people think outside of the box on what is more of a political issue than anything else. She got people to ask questions, and to look for other solutions to their problems.

    Conspiracies happen all the time. Anna Nicole and her son, and now we find out that she really was harmed intentionally. We just had swine flu which came from 4 different viruses. Human, Swine and Bird flu, from 3 different continents. Asia, Europe and North America. Yet when you scream conspiracy no one wants to listen.

    I think it’s interesting that her doctor thought the herbs were suspicious. We live in a world where dark forces do indeed wait in the wings to further their agenda.

    I was not aware that she was due to speak or testify against someone two days before she died. That’ interesting news.

    There are people online, in every forum, who are paid and working for an alternative agenda. The world is one big controlled place, and yes conspiracies do happen all the time, but people can’t live in the shadow and darkness forever, if Christine had done this, she would not have touched so many people’s lives, or changed so many thoughts on a very interesting subject.

    I found out about her death not too long ago, and I am very saddened by it, because I think she was an original who made people think outside the box. She was brave to share her views and I hope that there was enough light sent out into the universe by her presence that people will keep asking questions, and searching for answers to a very complex problem, that has definatly not been answered by traditional science.

    In fact it seems more and more that traditaional science might have had a hand in this from the start. Playing both sides.

    [quote]Five years later, Gallo, who had worked for the Virus Cancer Program (VCP), “discovered” the retrovirus that causes AIDS; and Duesberg, who also worked for the VCP, continues to declare that HIV is harmless.[/quote]

    Both men forgot to mention their hard work on this wonderful project. One side leading the take the medicine that will kill you, the other side, saying don’t take the medicine, because HIV does not lead to AIDS.

    I don’t know what the truth is, but I do know that if people stop asking questions, they will dishonour the memories of those who fought to free their minds, and tried to get them to see the truth.

    I wish you all well in your continued fight. Your fight is one tentacle of a much larger octupus that the world is dealing with. Your conspiracy is just one arm of a bigger branch, and the moment the world wakes up to this reality, it will be a better place.

    To have said anything less on this topic would not make me the person that I wish to be. I think Christine was special and brave, and I think the world was a better place for having someone like her in it, in that it made them think and see outside of their mental prisons. I am sorry that she is gone and did not get to see her cause through to the end, or justice for EJ, like she wanted, but I hope her fight will continue. By this I mean that I hope people will continue to think outside of the box, and continue to look for the answers till they find the truth. All the best.

  102. Baby Pong Says:

    Thanks Gangstalking. Yes, there are people on most relevant forums (on all issues of importance to the Power Elite) who are paid to post, agent-provocateurs is what we call them. They tell false stories and such, pretend to have beliefs that they don’t really have, in order to win people’s confidence.

    Christine really should have gotten out of the activism biz after EJ’s death (even before would have been better). What happened was predictable, and in fact I had a strong premonition it was going to happen, and I warned her and urged her to take action to undermine any plots that might be brewing against her. (like, repeatedly try to test negative and stop allowing your healthy condition to be publicized in movies and on TV)

    She probably found it difficult to do that, because I believe TV shows like 20-20 were paying her money for her appearances, and she probably needed the money.

    People don’t realize that Christine and her healthy life and family were a threat to US national security. The exposure of Aids science would have been disastrous to US science leadership and their ability to dictate what is scientific truth to the rest of the world. Would have caused global rage and uprising and maybe even revolutions. Hence quite possibly she was targeted by the dark forces that the US govt runs.

    It’s also highly interesting and ironic that, if she and EJ were not killed by black ops, they may well have been killed by iatrogenic means — the antibiotics that allopathic medicine insists are good for you.

    And part of the reason she allowed EJ to be given antibiotics, probably against her better judgment, may have been that she was very aware that the “Child Protective Services” were watching her, and waiting for some excuse to seize her child from her. She may have figured that, if she had not allowed the antibiotics to be given to EJ, CPS might have stormed into the house with guns drawn and taken her child. As they have done to people who refuse to allow allopathic quackery to be perpetrated on their children on many occasions.

  103. gangstalking Says:

    I treat Christine and EJ’s deaths as two seperate events. What caused one might not have caused the other. The problem is no one looked further after the death of EJ, they had the answers and that was it. Life is not like that.

    http://www.justicedenied.org/patriciastallings.htm

    The first case is interesting and it’s just one of many examples where the medical establishment said one thing, and arrested a woman and they were wrong. The child died from a rear genetic disorder, but they insisted that she had poisoned her child. They tested his bottles and said, yes antifreeze was found, you are guilty, and that was it. That would have been it, but she was pregnant. The same thing happened when the second child was born, the second child that had been taken away from her.

    When they looked into it, it was not poisoning, it was a very rear genetic disorder. Read the case study.

    [quote]The newly appointed Prosecuting Attorney, George B. McElroy III, felt he had enough evidence to convict Patricia Stallings. As he immersed himself in the Stallings’ case, he interviewed all the witnesses himself. He talked to all the experts involved and reviewed their findings. They found a gallon of antifreeze in the basement of the couple’s home. In the Prosecuting Attorney’s mind, all the evidence pointed to Stallings’ guilt. McElroy grew disturbed by news reports that Patricia’s second baby suffered from a rare metabolic disease called Methylmalonic Acidemia, commonly referred to in the medical field as (MMA.)

    Two major pieces of medical evidence seemed to positively indicate that Ryan’s mother had poisoned him. The first was the finding of ethylene glycol in the infant’s body by two independent laboratories. McElroy, consulted with a couple of “experts,” who wrongly advised him that even if Ryan suffered from the rare metabolic disease (MMA) that it still would not account for the high levels of ethylene glycol found in the baby’s blood. The second disturbing piece of evidence was the finding of crystals in Ryan’s brain that the experts concluded were positive signs of ethylene glycol poisoning.

    Patricia’s Attorney, Rathbone, who took the case as a favor to the Stallings family and “Because no one else would take it,” had a hard time finding any witnesses who would testify that the infant had likely died of a rare inborn metabolic disorder. “The problem is that there was no one who would back me up on it,” Rathbone said.[/quote]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azaria_Chamberlain_disappearance

    Second case, not medically related, but dingoes ate my baby. Sounds upsurd. They called her a killer, murderer, and they arrested her and would not believe her. Several years later, the same thing happened with another family.

    They would not believe that a dingo could take away a baby, and strip it of it’s clothing, they thought it was an eleborate plot by the family.

    Truth is sometimes stranger than fiction.

    I think what contributed to Christine’s death was cruelty. I read about the law and order SVU episode. It’s sounded brutal. It must have just cut open those wounds. I think you can fight many things with the mind, but this seems to have hit her below the belt. Harder than anything in the three years since losing EJ. Looks like something finally worked.

    I don’t know if EJ’s death was natural, meaning disease related, deliberate meaning intentional in some way, or just something all together not thought of. If tomorrow we found out that there is a child on Christine’s side of the family or Robin’s who have a rear genetic disorder, and who dies in a similar way that EJ did, and the autopsy shows the same thing, would they jump to the same conclusions?

    Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction, that is why we have to always keep searching, keep asking questions, keep looking for answers.

  104. Truthseeker Says:

    Thanks G for that Wiki reference on the Azaria Chamberlain ‘dingo ate my baby’ saga, new to us, though the theme is not. When in doubt, blame the victim seems to be the principle here. That is to say, whenever a child disappears, or family members are murdered, and you lack any trail to any other suspect, you settle on the bereaved parent or parents as the killer of their own child. This happens so often that one wonders if there is some fundamental psychology involved. Does a parent losing a child in unexplained circumstances arouse deep fears of abandonment in the onlookers, which results in a lynch mob rage fed by this primeval terror of childhood?

    It also raises another question. The McCanns, the Brit couple whose three year old ultra cute daughter was abducted in Spain, were on Oprah the other day, affording a chance to study them and their faces. They suffered the standard treatment ie they were soon vilified by the cops and the press, compounding their misery, even though a witness reported seeing a man carrying a toddler in his arms on the street around the time she disappeared.

    Studying their faces and recognizing their types among the collection we were provided with by our childhood in England, we could see they were obviously decent innocents, and that the accusers were the creeps. A friend marvels sarcastically at our amazing ability to tell from someone’s face whether they are liars or not, but we feel that in many cases what is written on someone’s face is readable.

    The question arises here in this blog thread whether Pong would be on the side of the angels or the devils in this type of case. Is it not true to suggest that unfortunately, despite his distinguished performance as a commentator on scientific skulduggery, he would be likely to join the hounds of hell, and persecute the innocent parents, since only that would be consistent with his tendency to suspect all is not well in areas where the supposedly naive blog host, too optimistic in his eyes about the honor and integrity of the media and government, tends to swallow the official line?

    Like Lady Bracknell, one asks merely for information. Is it not true that the crowd in such cases as the dingo ate the baby tends to behave in a paranoid manner, and does not this bias apply on the Web to the WTC/Pentagon issue and similar? And was it not taken advantage of by the Bush administration in peddling the story of WMDs in Iraq to justify the US attack?

    Perhaps there should be a governor installed in the process of looking for answers which counteracts this bias.

  105. Baby Pong Says:

    i haven’t read the links and didn’t even know what a “dingo” was until I googled it. You should know by now that Pong is always on the Devil’s side. But this case sounds a bit like “Shaken Baby Syndrome” in which parents are blamed for a baby’s death that was probably really caused by vaccination. They even get doctors to testify about the new syndrome. And parents are convicted (I think some have been convicted) without any evidence, just on the doctor’s assurance that the parents must have shaken the baby to death. And the med establishment that enforce vaccination doctrine with the same ridicule-demean-but-don’t-debate tactic that they use with H skeptics, escape scot-free, by the age-old technique — find a scapegoat.

  106. Truthseeker Says:

    Pong, don’t cases where Shaken Baby Syndrome is alleged and then used to convict need some corroboration in evidence of blood clots or whatever suggests a shaken baby? Also, you are aware that the six major mainstream studies found no correlation between vaccines and autism, right?

    On the topic of vaccines they are now reporting that fear of vaccines has resulted in resurgent disease, according to a headline we skimmed in the last few days.

    What’s the best reliable – scientifically reliable if possible – website on this topic you would recommend to newcomers?

  107. Baby Pong Says:

    Six studies, you say? Six major studies done by the medical establishment and published in prestigious journals? How could they possibly be wrong?

    I guess it didn’t occur to you that the studies just might have been designed and executed by researchers who were fully aware that, if they found that vaccines cause autism, they would be blacklisted from any future research, probably fired or demoted, and their names and reputations dragged through the cesspool. And equally aware that, if they found that vaccines don’t cause autism, they would continue being rich, respected researchers, with ever more funding directed their way by the Faucis of the world.

    Yes, I too have skimmed web headlines saying things like “A child has died from a preventable disease” which was in one of the science mags. Why don’t they write stories like that every time a child dies from after-effects of vaccination, which happens so often that the US govt set up a fund to compensate the parents of vaccine-killed and injured children (to spare the drug companies the financial liability). They don’t report those stories, you may have noticed. What causes this curious state of reportorial affairs??? Could it be drug industry influence and ad dollars perchance?

    Here is a good article on the Shaken Baby subject by our friend Mohammed Al-Bayati.

    http://www.taap.info/Man117_129.pdf

  108. Truthseeker Says:

    The scientific literature is the first litmus test applied to claims by the watchdogs at this site, as you know, followed closely by another litmus test applied to the studies cited. Are they properly done or not?

    As you know, we have pointed out often, in harmony with many people and other sites and books, that many studies in medicine are not properly done, and very often seem to assume the outcome they detect and even use it as a premise. As JAMA and others have shown, this mysteriously correlates to quite a high degree with the business interests of the researchers, who for some reason dpn’t often publish results which would lower the revenue of their funders.

    We stop short however of stating so blatantly your apparently reflex suspicion of the motivations of researchers, whether conscious or not. Given that human motivations are rarely simple, it seems unfair to accuse people of sheer crookedness if many factors are at work, some of them probably sheer incompetence and stupidity and other unconscious factors.

    Yet as you know in AIDS many of the drug studies are useless for lack of controls and the entire literature assumes that the cause of immune deficiency is HIV without any good reason and innumerable reasons against this presumption, It is clear from their actions to resist review that the leaders of the field are fully aware that their tens of thousands of papers are corrupted at their core and outsiders could easily see this if the critics were allowed to gain a major media platform.

    Whether autism research is similarly corrupted by poor design and reasoning we don’t know. Certainly the parents of autistic children and their supporters are sure there is a correlation between vaccines and their child’s handicap. The suspicion that the mercury in vaccines was causing the problem seems now, however, to be ruled out, since autism diagnoses are as high or higher than ever even though the mercury laden preservative has been removed from vaccines for two years now, we believe. Perhaps you know better.

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