New mainstream coverage of rethinkers
Piece in Charlotte SC paper lays out issue fairly
Remarkably clear account by Greg Hambrick
Is South Carolina a hotbed of enlightened comment on national issues which are distorted by power and money in the power centers of this country?
Suddenly the Charleston City Paper, an arts and entertainment weekly in Charlotte, has published this morning (Wed Mov 29) Rethinking AIDS: Doubters abandon traditional HIV/AIDS theories and treatment, a very matter of fact, well written and surprising reliable account of the vexed HIV?AIDS dispute in which reporter Greg Hambrick doesn’t seem to have heard of Dr Anthony Fauci of NIAID and his edict that no media coverage of this topic is allowed.
Telling both sides
Instead of kow towing to the mainstream wisdom as a matter of course and repeating all their quotes deploring HIV debunkers as scientific Luddites, Greg swiftly balances any rude remarks from spokesmen of the official line with a counter quote from an HIV critic such as Peter Duesberg or Henry Bauer.
The scientific evidence is overwhelming and compelling that HIV is the cause of AIDS, says Jennifer Ruth, spokeswoman with the National Center for HIV, STD, and Tuberculosis Prevention.”Infection with HIV has been the sole common factor shared by AIDS cases throughout the world among men who have sex with men, transfusion recipients, persons with hemophilia, sex partners of infected persons, children born to infected women, and occupationally exposed health care workers,” Ruth says.
Henry Bauer, a retired chemistry and science professor and an ardent rethinker, says history has shown reversals in science when the orthodoxy was challenged by mounting questions.
“When the questions get to a critical mass, it’s a revolution,” he says. “But it’s often a bloody revolution.”
For someone presumably new to the topic Greg has done a nifty job of summarising the to and fro so that any newcomer can catch up with what is going on, and we expect this piece will have some influence in helping to keep the sputtering debate going.
Noreen Martin’s breakaway
The heroine of the piece is none other than Noreen Martin, who has been active in comments here recently as well as on Hanks You Bet Your Life.
Everything known about AIDS suggests that Noreen Martin is near death. The 53-year-old Lowcountry woman was diagnosed with AIDS three years ago. Her viral load, the rate of HIV in her blood, is at more than 100,000 — 200 to 500 is good and an undetectable number is even better. Her CD4 rate that gauges the number of “helper†cells in her system is at 136 — healthy people run between 600 and 1,200. Martin’s doctors have begged her to take antivirals, but she’s refused the drugs since March and the numbers keep heading in the wrong direction.The puzzler is that Martin looks great. She feels great. She says it’s no surprise. She claims it’s because everything known about AIDS is wrong. She says HIV is a harmless retrovirus that can’t be sexually transmitted, that AIDS medicine can cause the very disease it is expected to fight, and that the government knows this and is ignoring the facts.
The only big blot on the page is the inevitable paragraph on Christine Maggiore reporting that her daughter Eliza died from an “AIDS related” illness, which of course as anyone who is familiar with the case knows is not true, whatever the incompetent and politically influenced coroner might have announced (she died of allergy to a common antibiotic).
This is a great pity since it goes without saying that this misreporting of Christine’s tragedy gives the naive reader a strong impression that rethinkers are flouting conventional wisdom at a heavy cost, in this case the death of a young daughter.
Then there is the tribute Martin pays to antiretrovirals saying they probably saved her life. This is another statement that will stick in the mind of the reader as proof that the established paradigm is correct after all.
The matter is more complicated than that, as readers of this blog will appreciate, since long term use of the drugs is universally acknowledged dangerous to the health especially of the liver, sometimes causing fatalities (half or more of US AIDS patients who die actually die of drug related symptoms such as liver failure not on the list of AIDS symptoms).
Short term use yields effects which patients are convinced are beneficial but which may simply reflect the effect of poison on infections, although the power of protease inhibitors to restore trace element balance in support of the immune system is a known benefit (this may be because the medication as a broad spectrum antibiotic kills infections interfering with digestion). There are also known antioxidant effects.
“It didn’t cure me, but it certainly helped,” Martin says. “On the chelation days I could at least get off the couch.”But her overall health continued to decline and when she finally got to the infectious diseases doctors, they rushed to get her on an antiviral medicine that Martin concedes likely saved her life.
“I had about three different viruses going on at the same time, so these things were a godsend,” she says, though noting that the success of the medicine was in tandem with healthy living and natural supplements.
But her doctors weren’t supportive of Martin’s alternative supplements, which sent her looking elsewhere for answers and eventually to the rethinkers movement.
“The more I read, the more things just weren’t adding up,” she says.
The even handed competence with which Greg Hambreck has covered the issue is generally impressive, though, especially since his last story on AIDS in September, Kicking AIDS Local photographer captures fight for Africa’s future was the usual stenographic piece acting as a mouthpiece for establishment thinking about AIDS in Africa.
Moore and Padian’s false claims
What good will this piece do? Given the extensive coverage of John P. Moore of Cornell, perhaps not as much as it might. This professional spanner-inserter is allowed to do a muted version of his usual smear job and the piece goes on to repeat the false claims on the AIDSTruth.org site, in particular the laughable attempt of Nancy Padian to disavow the conclusion of her own study which found no transmission whatsoever in six years between fifty seven heterosexual discordant couples that didn’t use condoms.
Earlier this year, after what they saw as a one-sided story on rethinkers in Harpers magazine by a writer immersed in the rethinkers movement, Moore and other HIV scientists and doctors began the website www.aidstruth.org to refute the claims in the article. They have since updated the website to combat other claims by the rethinkers, whom they refer to as “denialists.”"These people are basically being persuaded to kill themselves,” Moore says.
On the other hand readers are not going to miss the figure that Noreen draws attention to, the 1 in 1000 acts rate of transmission that the study found (after finding no transmissions during the study, transmission before the study was guessed at probably to provide some figure higher than zero, which would have been far too embarassing to the paradigm and lost Padian her high status among the officers of the palace guard of that unfounded theory).
And Hambrick does quote Noreen’s prize remark that scores a bullseye on the prima facie ridiculous core at the heart of the HIV∫AIDS panic, the claim that a fatal epidemic is being transmitted by the HIV antibodies that the test detects, which as we know are normally accompanied by a virtual absence of virus, if any at all:
“Everybody’s immunity is different,” she says. “I can’t give somebody my immunity any more than I could give them my toothache.”
But the Padian rebuttal is then given play and the reader is likely to conclude that Padian is the one with the authority:
It’s Padian herself who refuted these arguments earlier this year on www.aidstruth.org. She notes that her study regarded couples that were counseled to use protection, not avoid it.”Individuals who cite the 1997 publication … in an attempt to substantiate the myth that HIV is not transmitted sexually are ill-informed, at best,” she stated. “Their misuse of these results is misleading, irresponsible, and potentially injurious to the public.”
Padian notes that HIV transmission between couples can be as high as 20 percent, depending on risk factors including other sexually transmitted diseases. Cornell professor Moore says that Padian is not alone and that certain lines from scores of studies have been selectively cited to further the rethinkers movement.
“Then these things become urban legends,” Moore says.
Report likely to please both sides
Equally misleading statements are quoted from the NIH Web site, so all in all it seems unlikely that the article will be thought of as anything but buttressing the defense of the paradigm by the average HIV∫AIDS official or health worker, while the AIDS critics will probably be pleased at receiving a modicum of balanced coverage.
We like to believe that this rather exemplary article may even be included in the information handed out on Friday (World AIDS Day) at the booths on campus at the College of Charleston’s North Campus, Trident Technical College’s Main Campus, The Citadel, and at the Medical University of South Carolina.
Hambrick is unusually evenhanded and clear, and writes in a dispassionate, business like style which may allow it to be mistaken as standard information on the paradigm, which it is in a way, a good guide to its claims and flaws as well as first class journalism easily followed even by readers who have never heard of the controversy before. Let’s hope it is widely distributed.
Meanwhile critics have a chance to set the record free from the misleading statements of Moore and Padian in Comments on the Web under the article, with Professor Bauer already having corrected a few errors, none of which, he says, “should detract from my praise of Greg Hambrick for a balanced account of an enormous and difficult topic”.
Well done Greg Hambrick, and all those like Professor Henry Bauer and Noreen Martin who briefed him so he got the picture so well.
Rethinking AIDS: Doubters abandon traditional HIV/AIDS theories and treatment:
Charleston SC Newspaper -
Arts Entertainment Weekly
NOVEMBER 29, 2006
FEATURE STORY | Rethinking AIDS
Doubters abandon traditional HIV/AIDS theories and treatment
BY GREG HAMBRICK
Everything known about AIDS suggests that Noreen Martin is near death. The 53-year-old Lowcountry woman was diagnosed with AIDS three years ago. Her viral load, the rate of HIV in her blood, is at more than 100,000 — 200 to 500 is good and an undetectable number is even better. Her CD4 rate that gauges the number of “helper†cells in her system is at 136 — healthy people run between 600 and 1,200. Martin’s doctors have begged her to take antivirals, but she’s refused the drugs since March and the numbers keep heading in the wrong direction.
The puzzler is that Martin looks great. She feels great. She says it’s no surprise. She claims it’s because everything known about AIDS is wrong. She says HIV is a harmless retrovirus that can’t be sexually transmitted, that AIDS medicine can cause the very disease it is expected to fight, and that the government knows this and is ignoring the facts.
It should be said early that this is not the generally accepted understanding of HIV and AIDS. The Centers for Disease Control and the National Institute of Health point to thousands of studies that show HIV is primarily a sexually transmitted disease that depletes the body’s immune system, opening it up to one or more AIDS-defining opportunistic infections.
At first glance, “AIDS rethinkers” like Martin seem to be buying into an elaborate conspiracy theory. Most rethinkers contend that the man who discovered HIV stole it from the French, many gay men get AIDS because of poppers and other recreational drug use, and most notably, there’s no AIDS epidemic.
Their argument is based on one disputable fact: No scientific study has been done that proves that HIV causes AIDS.
An argument that is contested, of course, by HIV and AIDS researchers. There are thousands of articles that prove the connection between the virus and AIDS, says Cornell University professor John Moore, even if there isn’t a singular paper that draws the line between the two.
“It’s like a moon rocket,” he says. “You’re not going to go to the web and find one five-page paper on how to build a moon rocket, but you know that it has been done.”
The scientific evidence is overwhelming and compelling that HIV is the cause of AIDS, says Jennifer Ruth, spokeswoman with the National Center for HIV, STD, and Tuberculosis Prevention.
“Infection with HIV has been the sole common factor shared by AIDS cases throughout the world among men who have sex with men, transfusion recipients, persons with hemophilia, sex partners of infected persons, children born to infected women, and occupationally exposed health care workers,” Ruth says.
Henry Bauer, a retired chemistry and science professor and an ardent rethinker, says history has shown reversals in science when the orthodoxy was challenged by mounting questions.
“When the questions get to a critical mass, it’s a revolution,” he says. “But it’s often a bloody revolution.”
“Rethinkers”
The underground scientific controversy over AIDS began in the disease’s earliest days. On June 5, 1981, the Centers for Disease Control reported the deaths of five gay men in Los Angeles from a rare type of pneumonia and a month later, they reported more than two dozen cases of gay men with Kaposi Sarcoma, another very rare disease. As the AIDS table grew to include drug users and hemophiliacs, scientists scrambled to find answers.
Rethinkers say American Robert Gallo claimed in 1984 to have found HIV, but his findings were based on a French group’s 1983 study of the virus. Gallo’s perceived deception is a sticking point for rethinkers because they say it is only the first in a string of lies regarding the disease.
In 1986, the Australian-based Perth Group claimed there was no proof that HIV existed. A year later, American scientist Peter Duesberg joined the argument, acknowledging that HIV existed but claiming it was harmless and that AIDS did not show signs common to contagious diseases.
“It’s so anti-scientific when you read these studies,” Duesberg says of more than 20 years of AIDS research. “As a scientist, you have to ask all the questions.”
Duesberg’s theory would gather support over the years as reports on his ideas continued to grow. But they were far outpaced by studies that furthered the popular counterargument that HIV depletes T-cells, which work to fend off disease in the body, ushering in AIDS typically within a decade of transmission.
Those only modestly familiar with HIV and AIDS can be excused for not hearing about rethinkers, but a quick search for information on HIV or AIDS on the internet will show various chatrooms, blogs, and internet sites dedicated to furthering Duesberg’s message.
Bauer has been collecting HIV and AIDS data compiled since the onset of the disease.
“What that data shows is that the rate at which Americans test positive for HIV has been the same for 20 years,” he says. “Therefore it’s not a spreading epidemic.”
The Centers for Disease Control’s findings mirror Bauer’s claim, noting that the number of people diagnosed with HIV or AIDS in 2004 was about the same as it was in 2001 in the 35 states that compile these figures. But a recent United Nations AIDS report notes that HIV infections continue to grow in Africa, but now at a slower pace than eastern Europe and central Asia, where there were 270,000 infections in 2006 compared with 170,000 in 2004. With the expectation that many HIV-positive people don’t know they’re positive, UNAIDS estimates that 39.5 million people are living with HIV worldwide and 4.6 million people were infected in 2006 alone.
The rethinkers movement received attention in 2000 when the government of South Africa began a public debate on HIV, AIDS, and antiviral medicine and called in Duesberg and other rethinkers to help determine how the country would combat the disease. AIDS activists have since worked around the government to get antiviral medicine and HIV education to the people.
Australia will soon have its own debate over the validity of HIV. That country’s Supreme Court recently heard arguments in a case where an HIV-positive Australian man claimed that he could not have infected a woman and endangered two other sex partners because HIV hasn’t been proven to exist.
The rethinkers movement took a blow last year when outspoken rethinker Christine Maggiore, who had refused antiviral medicine for years, even while pregnant, and decided against testing her two small children for HIV, lost her three-year-old daughter to an AIDS-related illness. Her son has since tested negative.
AIDS rethinkers exchange news on these stories and various AIDS findings through a growing number of websites that offer support for rethinkers, which heartens Martin.
“When I did it, I had to do it the hard way,” she says.
Noreen’s Story
Among a varied collection of antique books in Noreen Martin’s library is an old, thick book from the Library of Health that she considers one of her favorites because of the inscription on the book cover: “You can do nothing to bring the dead to life; but you can do much to save the living from death.”
Martin, a Hanahan housewife who does some reporting for the community paper as a hobby, has been fighting off injuries and illness for years, including a herniated disc and pinched nerves, cancer, an ear infection, and various allergic reactions to medicine she was taking to combat these problems.
“I’ve forgotten a lot, which is a good thing,” she says. “It’s part of the healing process. The mind has a way of blocking out the negative things or bad memories.”
In 2003, her health further deteriorated, as she began experiencing fatigue, nausea, diarrhea, breathing troubles, weight loss, and continued memory loss. Doctors pressed her to get a bone biopsy and blood tests to determine if she had cancer. The tests came back indicating she was cancer-free, but further tests found she had HIV and AIDS.
“After months and months of being sick, I was relieved,” Martin says. “I just wanted to know what was wrong.”
Martin was told to wait two months for an appointment with an infectious diseases doctor. Not wanting to wait around, she went to a health food store, where the owner told her about an alternative doctor who performs chelation therapy, a hours-long cleansing of sorts for the blood that targets proteins and is supposed to help with blood flow. Chelation therapy has its own controversies, with the American Heart Association and the FDA stating there is no medical benefit to the practice and the CDC attributing the deaths of two children to a chelation drug called Endrate. But Martin says it was one of the few things that helped her in the early months after she was diagnosed.
“It didn’t cure me, but it certainly helped,” Martin says. “On the chelation days I could at least get off the couch.”
But her overall health continued to decline and when she finally got to the infectious diseases doctors, they rushed to get her on an antiviral medicine that Martin concedes likely saved her life.
“I had about three different viruses going on at the same time, so these things were a godsend,” she says, though noting that the success of the medicine was in tandem with healthy living and natural supplements.
But her doctors weren’t supportive of Martin’s alternative supplements, which sent her looking elsewhere for answers and eventually to the rethinkers movement.
“The more I read, the more things just weren’t adding up,” she says.
The picture of health – Noreen Martin has AIDS, but she’s refused antiviral medicine and believes her disease is based on a natural immune deficiency
Where Martin had first thought that she had HIV, she now doubts that initial test and believes that she contracted AIDS through a natural immune deficiency.
“Everybody’s immunity is different,” she says. “I can’t give somebody my immunity any more than I could give them my toothache.”
Feeling better, Martin decided to go off the antiviral medicine in early 2005, but soon returned to it after pressure from the doctors and her husband. Last March, she decided that she would get off the medicine and not look back. She is now taking Low Dose Naltrexone, a drug that helps people with immune deficiency diseases, that was prescribed by another physician.
Though he’s not familiar with the rethinkers movement, Robert Cantey, director of infectious diseases with the Medical University of South Carolina, says an AIDS patient ditching their drugs isn’t uncommon.
“That’s a typical response when someone has a good response to the medicine,” he says, but notes it was more common years ago when the side effects were more severe.
Martin says she’s been in great health since going off her antivirals, but the blood tests paint a different picture as her CD4s, the helper cells that ward off diseases, continue to fall and her viral load climbs from less than 100 to more than 100,000. Cantey says the numbers are now in the range where Martin is susceptible to brain, lung, or bloodstream infections that are common among AIDS victims. He says Martin’s late diagnosis likely contributed to her quick drop in CD4s.
“The worse those numbers are when you go on the medicine, the faster they’ll drop when you go off the medicine,” he says.
Meanwhile, Martin’s advice for others is to stay healthy and don’t get tested for HIV.
“People’s lives are being ruined by this very faulty test,” she says. “You get the results and it’s downhill from that point on. Doctors need to treat symptoms, but they don’t do that. All they care about is if you’re positive. If you’re positive, you’re screwed.”
“Denialists”
Rethinkers have been combated quietly over the last 20 years, but more high profile attention on the movement in the past few years has prompted scientists that support the link between HIV and AIDS to openly refute the rethinkers’ claims. Facing the public doubts of the South African government in 2000, 5,000 scientists, doctors, and researchers, including several Nobel Prize winners, signed the Durbin declaration that reaffirms that HIV causes AIDS.
Earlier this year, after what they saw as a one-sided story on rethinkers in Harpers magazine by a writer immersed in the rethinkers movement, Moore and other HIV scientists and doctors began the website www.aidstruth.org to refute the claims in the article. They have since updated the website to combat other claims by the rethinkers, whom they refer to as “denialists.”
“These people are basically being persuaded to kill themselves,” Moore says.
The argument begins with what causes AIDS. Rethinkers attribute the disease, in large part, to drug use. Duesberg notes drugs have long been known to deplete the immune system and an early study of AIDS cases among gay men found a large number of them used recreational drugs, primarily poppers, an inhaled drug used as a sexual stimulant.
“It’s a matter of dose and time and genetic constitution,” Duesberg says, noting that drugs effect different people in different ways the same way that smoking does.
But a 1993 study that followed 715 gay men for more than eight years found that 350 men who never acquired HIV noted “appreciable” drug use. Another 2005 study found a strong link between poppers and unprotected sex among San Francisco gay men, suggesting that even though the drug may not cause HIV/AIDS, it could place users at increased risk of contracting HIV through unsafe sexual intercourse.
If drug use causes AIDS, rethinkers then note that the concerns of sexual transmission are moot because it cannot be spread this way. Martin says that she does not use protection during sex with her husband. She points to a study by California scientist Nancy Padian that studied heterosexual couples where one was HIV-positive and one was HIV-negative and found that transmission of the disease was far less than one percent (as low as 1 in 1,000) among heterosexual couples.
It’s Padian herself who refuted these arguments earlier this year on www.aidstruth.org. She notes that her study regarded couples that were counseled to use protection, not avoid it.
“Individuals who cite the 1997 publication … in an attempt to substantiate the myth that HIV is not transmitted sexually are ill-informed, at best,” she stated. “Their misuse of these results is misleading, irresponsible, and potentially injurious to the public.”
Padian notes that HIV transmission between couples can be as high as 20 percent, depending on risk factors including other sexually transmitted diseases. Cornell professor Moore says that Padian is not alone and that certain lines from scores of studies have been selectively cited to further the rethinkers movement.
“Then these things become urban legends,” Moore says.
Rethinkers also claim that the standard HIV test is woefully unreliable, claiming that as many as 70 factors can cause a false-positive.
“HIV has never been isolated in its pure form,” Bauer says, “which means that these tests have never been validated.”
This claim by rethinkers is based in fact. The majority of HIV tests aren’t designed to identify HIV. They actually find HIV antibodies, or proteins the body creates to defend itself against HIV.
Moore says that technology has improved by leaps and bounds since the virus was first identified and that the rethinkers often base their logic on outdated data. To combat inaccuracies, HIV tests have been confirmed through a second, different test for several years. The Centers for Disease Control notes that the two tests together have a 99 percent accuracy rate, and Cantey says he’d put the accuracy rate at 99.9 percent.
Not only is the HIV test quackery, rethinkers argue, but so are the drugs HIV and AIDS patients are given to battle the disease.
Much like the test, medicines to combat the viral load have evolved as older drugs, which time has shown to be less effective, are replaced with newer drug regimens. Some rethinkers say that drugs like AZT cause AIDS and others say that the toxic side effects of the drugs have led to death.
“It’s an example of the old saying that the operation was a success, but the patient died,” Bauer says.
Today HIV and AIDS patients are typically given a cocktail of medicines. “Use of potent anti-HIV combination therapies has contributed to dramatic reductions in the incidence of AIDS and AIDS-related deaths in populations where these drugs are widely available,” the NIH’s website states. “An effect which clearly would not be seen if antiviral drugs caused AIDS.”
Africa’s high-profile struggle with AIDS has also received the ire of the rethinkers. People with AIDS in Africa are dying from the same diseases that have always plagued them: wasting, malnutrition, and tuberculosis. Rethinkers claim this is because AIDS is not an epidemic in Africa and that the perceived plight is just a way to pull money to the region and bolster the global fight against AIDS.
“I’ve seen commercials of kids starving in Africa,” Martin says. “That’s nothing new. Now they have something new they can blame it on.”
But just as AIDS-defining illnesses in America began appearing at much higher rates than seen before, these diseases in Africa are showing unusual trends when it comes to AIDS patients, attacking them at much younger ages and including those middle-class groups who aren’t malnourished. A 1995 study found that HIV-positive people in Cote d’Ivoire were 17 times more likely to die from tuberculosis than those not infected with HIV.
Rethinkers also note that the disease is affecting different races and regions differently, something uncommon with communicable diseases. The NIH and others note various reasons for the difference, including in what groups the disease was first recognized and sex practices.
These and other attempts to refute the claims of the rethinkers have done nothing to quell their continued belief that everything the world has been told about HIV is wrong. Noreen Martin is active daily on a number of rethinker web forums and she has started her own website to further the cause and chart her own progress.
“Let people make up their own mind,” Martin says. “I made up my mind and I’m not turning back.”
Dec. 1 – World AIDS Day Charleston Events
On Friday, the world gathers to combat the spread of HIV during World AIDS Day. In Charleston, Lowcountry AIDS Services and other groups will expand this year’s events to two days.
Events will begin on Thurs., Nov. 30 with information booths set up from 11 a.m.-1 p.m. at the College of Charleston’s North Campus, Trident Technical College’s Main Campus, The Citadel, and at the Medical University of South Carolina, which will also host a luncheon with guest speaker Dr. Preston Church.
On Fri., Dec. 1, there will be events at MUSC’s horseshoe from 11:30-1:30, at the College of Charleston from 11 a.m.-1 p.m. at Rivers Green, and from 11 a.m.-2 p.m. at Trident Technical College Palmer Campus. Roper Medical Center and St. Francis Medical Center will also have panels of the AIDS quilt on display from 10 a.m.-2 p.m.
A candlelight march and rally will begin at Marion Square near the Embassy Suites at dusk, around 5:30 p.m., with marchers walking to the Cistern at the College of Charleston where they’ll have the opportunity to call there loved one’s name publicly. There will be an area of healing and comfort at the Cistern with lay pastors and counselors and refreshments for those that need assistance.
Glass luminaries dedicated to those lost from HIV/AIDS are also available for $10. Their names will be labeled onto the luminaries, which can be retrieved at the end of the event. For more information, contact Mark McKinney at 849-8531.
A little more than a week later, on Sat., Dec. 9, more than 100 red ribbon retailers in downtown, West Ashley, and Mt. Pleasant will host Shopping with Friends, a fund-raiser for Lowcountry AIDS Services where 10 percent of the sales on that day will be donated to the AIDS organization.
The event starts with a kick-off party from 5-8 p.m. on Dec. 8 at Saks Fifth Avenue on King Street. On Saturday morning, there will be a brunch from 9 a.m. to noon at the Renaissance Hotel with complimentary gift bags. For more information on the events, visit Lowcountry AIDS Services online at www.aids–services.com/shopping.html or look for the posters in participating stores. –Greg Hambrick
AIDS By the Numbers
Worldwide
•39.5 million people in the world are living with HIV and 4.3 million were newly infected in 2006.
•Eastern Europe and Central Asia are outpacing Africa in the number of new AIDS cases, with 270,000 in 2006, compared with 170,000 in 2004.
Nationwide
•1.2 million people in the U.S. had HIV in 2005.
•Men still account for about 73 percent of the HIV diagnoses in the U.S., with almost two-thirds of those infections attributable to unsafe sex between men.
Statewide
•There were 13,508 people living with HIV/AIDS in South Carolina by the end of 2005.
•560 people tested positive for HIV/AIDS statewide in 2005, compared with 832 in 1995.
Locally
•4,156 people were tested for HIV in Charleston last year. Of those, 51 tested positive, about half as many as a decade ago.
•Berkeley and Dorchester had a combined 1,831 HIV tests, but accounted for less than 1.2 percent of the positive tests statewide, compared with more than 3 percent in 1995.
Source: UNAIDS, SCDHEC
COMMENTS
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1 comments posted for this article
Henry H. Bauer, Virginia 11/29/2006 - 2:16pm
Greg Hambrick did a great job in covering in a balanced way a huge story, about which gross misinformation is so common. Naturally he could not give details on every point, so I should like to add these: –John Moore’s comparison with moon rockets is plain silly. A better analogy is that lots of bad data don’t make even a tiny bit of good evidence. Many HIV-positive people never got ill in two decades, and many people with AIDS symptoms are HIV-negative, in particular people with Kaposi’s sarcoma which was a “signature” AIDS disease. Even the mainstream now says Kaposi’s is caused by a different virus –Ruth’s statement about HIV being common to all cases is demonstrably untrue. She should cite all the scientific articles on which she bases that assertion. (They don’t exist.) –No one claims to know how HIV kills T-cells, after 2 decades of research –All the cited numbers of infections are from computer models, they are not actually observed and counted cases. The models rely on innumerable doubtful assumptions, and have been demonstrably way off the mark in a number of specific instances. –Even the computer estimates by UNAIDS give the same rate of HIV infection in 2006 as in 1996, for sub-Saharan Africa as well as other regions of the world –Christine Maggiore’s child did NOT die of an AIDS-related illness. The coroner concerned has long been regarded as unreliable. –Recent scientific publications (August and September) showed that people on “cocktail” therapy got AIDS events EARLIER than those not on therapy; and that while the “surrogate markers” of CD4 counts and “viral load” improved, the patients’ health got worse –More than a dozen studies besides Padian’s, in Africa and Haiti and Thailand as well as in the USA, have never shown sexual transmission of more than a few per thousand acts; and where use of condoms was controlled for, they made no difference None of these comments should detract from my praise of Greg Hambrick for a balanced account of an enormous and difficult topic.
(citypaper@textgenie.com), NYC 11/30/2006 - 2:17pm
An excellent article, giving an unsually clear and even handed review of a debate that is not widely covered in the media, because the scientists in tehe field actively fight reexamination of their theory, an attitude which the comments of John Moore, Nancy Padian and other spokesmen in the article betray. The Charlotte City Paper and reporter should be congratulated for bringing such level headed coverage to their readers. This is one issue in science where the critics have established that there are very serious problems with the conventional wisdom, and with lives at stake it is depolorable that scientists should resist public review. As Professor bauer points out, the points made in defense quoted in the article include many which are wrong, especially Nancy Padian’s attempt at refuting her own study, which showed that heterosexual transmission of AIDS through sex is far too weak to sustain any epdiemic, let alone a world wide pandemic. Readers who have been alerted by this article to the possibility that standard medicine is wrong in HIV/AIDS will want to visit Peter Duesberg’s site, Virusmyth and the two most active science blogs, Barnesworld You Bet Your Life and New AIDS Review for more information.
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Michael, Downtown 11/30/2006 - 8:09pm
Right On Greg!
You did a great job balancing both sides of a very touchy issue. But make no mistake. Nobody has ever died of AIDS. AIDS is a definition, not a disease. AIDS is NOT a disease! It is a definition that includes about 30 common diseases that even HIV negative people die from all of the time, like pneumonia. Once diagnosed with the flakey and faulty HIV tests as HIV positive, a patient is not allowed to catch the flu or get pneumonia without blaming it on HIV and calling it AIDS.
Yet most of the death certificates of those who died of what is called AIDS almost always say “complications of AIDS” which is a convenient way of saying they were poisoned to death by the AIDS medications. Liver failure is the most common cause of death in American HIV positives, not anything viral! Kidney failure and heart failure are right up there as well. All due directly to the AIDS drugs, yet the pharmaceutical companies making and selling these drugs have not even taken responsibility for even a single death!
Those doctors and scientists and drug companies who have cashed in on the hundreds of billions of dollars dumped down the AIDS hole will not go down without one helluva fight! Their bank accounts and overly inflated egos are at stake! Do you think any doctor that has handed out toxic and deadly AIDS drugs to his patients will ever admit to having helped to do his patient in? Not in your life!
It’s about time somebody speaks out on this. How many people scared themselves to death, and how many doctors scared their patients to death over this very issue. By the way, the number of AIDS deaths in the US did not come down until high dosages of AZT were taken out of the doctors hands in about 1995. But the scientists say it is because today’s drugs are better at controlling HIV. Bull! The drugs are simply less toxic than the AZT that was given in 1200mg dosages to patients from 1987 to 1995, the years of massive death said to be due to HIV. Today the leading cause of death in American HIV positives, according to a 2002 study by University of Pittsburg AIDS researcher Amy Justice, is liver failure, which is not due to a virus, it is directly due to drug poisoning.
But the issue is even deeper than this. Ever wonder why HIV and AIDS hits 99% gays and blacks? Do you really suppose a virus knows the difference between white and black or between gay and straight, or drug adicts of any race? How come it is not ravaging West European and American heterosexuals, as it does in poor poverty stricken and starving Africa? That is one genius of a virus that knows how to tell the difference between race and sexuallity and also knows if you are a hardcore drug abuser or not, dontcha think?
The pharma companies make money selling the ingredients for making crystal meth to the public and then cash in again when the ravaged bodies of the addicted are diagnosed as having HIV AIDS.
I don’t believe death by AIDS will ever stop unless and until big pharma is reigned in and unless and until our gay sons and brothers and friends are accepted just the way they are, instead of being disowned and shamed to death by the so called moral majority.
AIDS in Africa will not stop until hunger, dirty water, and hopelessness are eradicated. Any time you find people living in shame, starvation, squalor and hopelessness, you find disease and death to be rampant. Back in the 1950’s we just called all the dead drug addicts “junkies”. They were found dead all the time back then, and we rightfully condemned the drug use. None of them were called HIV/AIDS, which is what they are called today.
The population of Africa just so happened to have doubled during the last 25 years of the so-called AIDS epidemic, and the starvation and hopelessness and water pollution has doubled as well.
America’s bigoted answer to this is to put all of Africa on toxic and deadly AZT and Nevirapine. No wonder South Africa’s president Mbeki is an AIDS Rethinker! At least President Mbeki can think for himself and see what is at the core of the problems in South Africa for himself, which is more than I can say for the imbeciles who lord over the more developed countries of the Western Hemisphere.
What was Bush’s answer for AIDS? First to put the CEO of Eli Lilly Pharmaceuticals in office as the AIDS Czar, which did not even raise an eyebrow of 99.9% of supposedly intelligent Americans. Second to throw 15 billion dollars at HIV AIDS as long as it was spent on American pharmaceuticals.
Excuse me, but Gee, I fail to see how this will help Africa come up out of poverty. It will only clean out their national treasuries trying to pay for these drugs for exploding pulations. I fail to see how this will help American drug addicts to overcome their addiction and self loathing. I fail to see how this will help us all to love and care for our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters, exactly as they are. And I fail to see how it will end the bigoted and racist attitudes that still drive many blacks even in developed countries to overcome the handicap of being born black and poor.
The only thing Bush and Clinton and any other elected official throwing Money at HIV and AIDS will do, is to make the poor poorer and the rich richer, and we regular tax paying fools out here, who elect these morons to continue to keep us ignorant, will continue to pay for it all.
And then we have the problem of many who were diagnosed as HIV positive, cash in big time on their diagnosis. Free medical, free food, free dental, free housing, and perks galore for lots of them, disablilty checks, welfare, etc. These people are not about to give up their diagnosis of HIV. It gives a lot of them a free ticket to skate through life. Lots of others get stuck up on the self pity and the pity poured on them by others. For a lot of them, it is the first time they ever “felt loved” by all those pity filled friends and folks close to them. Not that pity is love, but its the closest that a lot of many of these often self loathing and self destructive people will get to it. Not anywhere near the majority of HIV positives, but many fall into this spell. But what the heck, lots of them are still untreated drug addicts, and/or disowned gay sons of the self righteous moral majority.
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Immauelk, USA 12/ 1/2006 - 3:05pm
Mr. Hambrick,
Two questions:
1. Did you actually SEE the results of Ms. Martin’s laboratory tests?
2. Will you please write a follow up story and tell us how Ms. Martin fares? And if she ultimately chooses conventional therapy?
I wish her well, but the published AIDS literature suggests that her prognosis is not good. Let’s hope that there is something different about her case that keeps her well.
Manny Kimmel
AIDS Activist
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Greg Hambrick (greg@charlestoncitypaper.com), Downtown 12/ 2/2006 - 6:54am
Yes, I have seen the results and we do plan to stay in touch with Noreen and check in on how she’s doing.
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Kamileon 12/ 2/2006 - 11:30pm
In your statewide statistics on infection, you have HIV/AIDS grouped as HIV/AIDS. Statistically speaking, this is VERY inaccurate and can be quite misleading. When you say that 13,000 and some people are infected with HIV/AIDS, what the hell does that mean?!
First of all, you can only be infected with HIV.
Second, not all people with HIV have AIDS.
Lastly, you can’t say all the people with HIV will get AIDS.
So what is it? Do the 13,000 some-odd people have HIV or AIDS?
Hey don’t worry about it, you’ve only been brainwashed by the HIV establishment into grouping your statistics into the “HIV/AIDS” realm, something they are notorious for.
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Michael, Downtown 12/ 3/2006 - 9:24pm
Hey Kamileon. As far as whether they are HIV or AIDS in the state listings, Lets also remember that once anyone who has been diagnosed as HIV positive comes down with any of the 29 common and supposedly “AIDS” defining diseases such as common pneumonia, they are forever after defined as having “AIDS” for the rest of their life. They are NEVER removed from the AIDS listing category, no matter how healthy or illness free that they ever become for the rest of the remainder of their lives. The state likes it that way, and so do the individual counties, as they both tap the federal government for funding every year based on these bullcrap and phoney baloney numbers. It’s a convenient little shell game to keep the bucks flowing. If HIV causes anything at all, it is most definitely the cause of fundraisers and money shuffles to keep the game going.
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Kicking AIDS: Local photographer captures fight for Africa’s future:
Local photographer captures fight for Africa’s future
In Zimbabwe, the average lifespan was 61 years in 1990. Today, the average adult dies at 39 with only 3.5 percent of the population making it to 65. The reason? HIV/AIDS. Deaths from AIDS-related illnesses have orphaned one million children in the country — 20 percent of all Zimbabwe’s children — and that will likely continue considering that 20 percent of pregnant women were HIV-positive in 2003. According to UNICEF, more than half of the patients in Zimbabwe are hospitalized with HIV/AIDS-related illnesses and more than 120,000 children under the age of 15 have HIV, the retrovirus that causes AIDS. Grassroot Soccer, a nonprofit that includes a Charleston photographer among its ranks, focuses on preventative education for 12-year-olds in Zimbabwe, using interactive programs and engaging volunteers whom the children will listen to with rapt attention — their soccer heroes.
There are lots of tools to fight HIV/AIDS, but usually soccer’s not one of them. That is, until Thomas Clark created Grassroot Soccer. Clark, an American who spent his early teenage years in Zimbabwe while his father coached soccer, fell in love with the country and eventually played for the same team his father coached. After returning to America for medical school, Clark decided to create Grassroot Soccer as a class project in 2002 after realizing that soccer could be used to reach children who are dealing with the realities of AIDS.
“It’s a way for the cultural love affair with soccer to be harnessed for something good,” he says.
The Grassroot program is loaded with informative games and information for children, but Clark says the focus is on community involvement and utilizing these children’s idols.
“Otherwise it’s a series of games and points anyone could do, but the special sauce is getting the role models involved.”
Though Grassroot Soccer is only one of several initiatives intended to spur HIV/AIDS education in Zimbabwe, the message appears to be getting across. In the last two years, the HIV prevalence rate has dropped from 24.6 percent to 20.1 percent, according to UNICEF.
“It’s certainly not solely due to our efforts, but it’s due to prevention education,” Clark says.
An independent evaluation of the program by Stanford University in 2004 found the program “significantly improves student knowledge, attitudes, and perceptions of social support related to HIV/AIDS.”
Denny leads a Grassroot Soccer session about HIV and AIDS prevention at St. Michael’s Primary School
The study found that students who participated in the program had a more positive attitude toward condoms and HIV testing and had more negative feelings about unprotected sex. There also seemed to be a decrease in the number of students with prejudice toward those with HIV and AIDS.
Welcome to Zimbabwe
The country was formed in 1980, but democracy never really took off in Zimbabwe. Robert Mugabe, the nation’s first prime minister, has ruled the country of 12 million for nearly 20 years. He rigged presidential elections in 2002 and quelled labor strikes calling for his retirement in 2003. His political arm, ZANU-PF, stole March 2005 parliamentary elections to allow it to change the constitution at will, according to the Central Intelligence Agency. A month later, Mugabe would institute Operation Restore Order, displacing 700,000 mostly poor supporters of the opposition, by United Nations’ accounts.
Immigration isn’t a problem, because the unemployed, who account for about 80 percent of the population, are leaving the country for economic opportunities in neighboring South Africa and Botswana. In response, South Africa has militarized its border and Botswana has installed electric fences to deter the exodus. News from Zimbabwe is sparse in America — the government raids last summer weren’t reported in The New York Times until November.
Aside from the political strife, the Central Intelligence Agency notes environmental nightmares, including deforestation, soil erosion, land degradation, air and water pollution, and poaching. Poor mining practices have also left the country with toxic waste and heavy metal pollution.
This was the backdrop last May as Alice Keeney’s plane pulled into a hangar in Bulawayo, the country’s second largest city. A soccer player for the College of Charleston before graduating in 2004, Keeney had spent a year learning photography in Paris until some friends suggested that she travel to Africa for a month and document the work of Grassroot Soccer.
“I really didn’t know what to expect,” she says. “I went over there pretty naive, to be honest.”
Keeney was the first off the small plane, greeted in the hangar by men with automatic weapons.
She had her $30 cash in hand — she’d been told that having the processing fee ready would help her move through customs quickly. She told them she was vacationing. Working photographers and aid workers can sometimes get a hard time from the government — while she was visiting, an American photographer was being held prisoner by the government.
“I never felt extremely unsafe,” Keeney says. “But, being there and hearing about it are two very different things.”
Tommy Clark, the director of Grassroot Soccer, also didn’t know what to expect from Keeney’s trip.
“There’s always someone going over there,” he says of media attention for the group. “I was just hoping nothing bad would happen to her.”
Keeney was introduced to the Grassroot staff in Zimbabwe, comprised almost entirely of locals.
“They’re either group leaders for after-school programs or professional soccer players,” she says.
Team Zebra takes part in “The Final Game,” in which the students answer questions that test their overall knowledge about HIV and AIDS at the end of the eight-day session with Grassroot Soccer; Each team of about seven players must answer each question correctly in order to then have the chance to complete a section of the obstacle course
While most Americans would be hard-pressed to name one of our soccer heroes from the past 20 years, Zimbabweans have a quick answer — M. Khupale. Known as Mr. Khupa to the masses, M. Khupale draws crowds and cheers everywhere he goes. The excitement is no different when he works with the Grassroot program, Keeney says.
“When he walks in to a classroom and starts teaching kids about HIV and AIDS, their attention is just wrapped around him,” she says.
The Program
In an age when some people push undeterred for abstinence education for teenagers, it’s impossible to imagine the Grassroot program of HIV/AIDS education will ever take place in the United States. In America, the realities of AIDS can be easily avoided by most any seventh grader.
“You walk into a classroom in the U.S. and you talk about sex and condoms, there’s giggles everywhere,” Keeney says.
But in Zimbabwe, where the darkness of AIDS takes family, friends, and neighbors hourly, let alone daily, children can’t be children anymore. “They realize they can be a victim of it.”
The Grassroot program lasts eight days over a two-week period. The students spend the first day in the classroom, answering true and false questions to dispel dangerous rumors long removed from American perceptions of HIV, but still prevalent in Africa.
“A lot of them have misconceptions, like you can get it easily through a mosquito bite,” says Keeney. They also might think HIV is contracted easily through schoolyard horseplay or that dangerous traditional healing practices will purge the disease, she notes. “It’s just a huge lack of education, really.”
After day one is complete, the rest of the program is chock-a-block with activities.
“It makes the kids think,” Keeney says. “That way they’re not just being told.”
One of the more effective games is “Hide the Ball,” where students are lined up shoulder to shoulder and a tennis ball with HIV/AIDS scrawled on it is passed behind their backs. Someone yells stop and a student left out of the line is asked to pick who has the ball.
“The point is you can’t see it,” she says. “It’s impossible to look at someone and see that they have HIV or AIDS.”
In “The Transmission Game,” the students learn the value of protection as students mingle in the classroom as if the people they speak with are sexual partners. At the end of the lesson, students learn that only three of them given a “condom” pass at the beginning of the class would survive if the game was actually intercourse.
Other games include “My Supporters,” which focuses on the community as a support system for those with HIV and AIDS in an area where many with the disease are still ostracized. In “Juggling My Life,” students learn how to make positive choices for themselves, and in “The Final Game,” the students use what they’ve learned in a team-style trivia game where correct answers move them through an obstacle course.
Along with the games, Grassroot Soccer also works with Ray of Light, a dance troupe of teens that help the students learn about HIV and AIDS through dance.
Once the program is completed, parents and family members are invited to a graduation ceremony where students are congratulated for their work. In one instance, parents told Clark that having their children go through the program gave them the courage to tell the children that both parents were HIV-positive.
“There’s such a stigma about HIV and AIDS,” Clark says. “Stories like that are so encouraging.”
Grassroot Soccer graduates put their hands together on June 3, 2005, after completing a two-week HIV and AIDS education course at Mawaba Primary School in Bulawayo, Zimbabwe
Grassroot also has a sister program for U.S. students called KickAIDS. Through the program, sports teams coordinate an education campaign that includes HIV/AIDS awareness, but focuses more intently on helping America’s young people understand the plight of Africa’s youth.
“It was a notion that it’s important that American kids understand what’s going on over there,” Clark says, “and encouraging them to be advocates in their community.”
The program includes a viewing of A Closer Walk, a documentary about Africa and AIDS narrated by Glenn Close and Will Smith. Students then organize fund-raisers, be they juggle-a-thons for soccer players or swim-a-thons for swim teams, with the proceeds going to Grassroot Soccer.
The group does have one American superstar contributing to its mission, although he’s better known for his reality TV appearances then his soccer skills. Ethan Zohn, a two-time Survivor competitor, including his $1 million victory in Africa, has used almost all of his stardom to highlight the programs of Grassroot Soccer, including wearing a T-shirt with the group’s logo during his stint on Survivor All-Stars. Zohn now coordinates the group’s American programs.
Heading back
Keeney returned home with photos of the hope that children in Zimbabwe get from the program. Grassroot now uses the pictures for fund-raising events and on the website to garner attention for the plight of Africans struggling with HIV/AIDS and the need for preventive education for Africa’s future. Clark says he has Keeney’s photos on his cellphone and his computer.
“She continues to be a big part of the organization,” he says. “She’s made herself invaluable.”
Keeney also notes the importance of pictures to show Zimbabwe’s children confronting their country’s struggles.
“A lot of the images you see from Africa are really desperate pictures,” she says. “Kids with flies all over their faces, which is definitely happening. But there’s also the other side of the story, where there is so much hope and desire for change.”
The response to the work of Grassroot has been very positive in Charleston, Keeney says, likely stemming from the program’s proactive approach.
“People like to see an organization that is doing something positive on the prevention side,” she says, noting the photographs she brought back show the realities of AIDS in Africa. “It helps having pictures. It puts a face to a name.”
Since her trip, Keeney has given Grassroot free use of her photos, providing about $10,000 in fund raising. Through local programs, she’s tried to educate South Carolinians about the dangers of HIV and AIDS a world away and here at home.
“It’s become a big part of me,” she says. “It’s nice to do something I love and help out a good organization.”
From the time she stepped foot on the plane to come back to the states, Keeney says she was ready to plan another trip back. She’ll be returning to Africa in a few weeks for a two-month stay with the help of local contributors, including Kudu Coffeehouse owner John Saunders.
The trip will begin in Botswana and Zambia, where she will document Grassroot Soccer’s other programs before heading back to Zimbabwe. She’ll then visit South Africa, where Grassroot is working with local mining camps to expand the AIDS education program. After harsh rebukes towards South Africa during the recent AIDS summit, education is a top priority.
“There’s a lot of pressure to set it up,” Keeney says. Grassroot will be a good fit for South Africa, with the 2010 World Cup planned in the country.
Before she goes, Keeney is holding two special events this weekend to go toward her work with Grassroot. On Saturday, Sept. 9, Kudu Coffee House will host a fund-raiser from 6-8 p.m. with prints for sale, a silent auction, door prizes, and music by Toca Toca. Beer and wine will be served. Keeney will also have a table set up at the Charleston Battery game against Rochester at 6 p.m. on Sunday, Sept. 10, at Blackbaud Stadium on Daniel Island. All profits from both events will go to Grassroot Soccer.
One teen that helps Grassroot Soccer with its education programs told Keeney that these children take the message just as seriously as the adults do.
“He said, ‘We’re the future of Zimbabwe. If we don’t make change, there won’t be a Zimbabwe,’” she says. “They realize something has to be done.”
For more information, visit
www.grassrootsoccer.org or www.kickaids.org.
COMMENTS
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1 comments posted for this article
jdewars411, Downtown 9/ 6/2006 - 4:35pm
With so many people dying from this terrible disease, I am glad to see some coverage on those who are working so hard to fight back. As a young individual, Alice Keeney’s efforts to help with aids awareness through Grass Roots Soccer is truly inspiring. If only there were more people like her in this world…
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November 30th, 2006 at 6:30 am
It happens all the time, we get confused with North Carolina,it’s Charleston, S.C.
November 30th, 2006 at 1:48 pm
Noreen,
you have my respect for putting yourself out there so publicly on this issue. It takes courage.
Positive notes about the article:
The title.
The general tone, as Truthseeker has noted.
And even though, on the surface it looks like Noreen may be giving the impression at points that the paradigm is stable (e.g., how she was helped by “AIDS drugs”), she’s simply telling her story, with which she may find a great number of people can relate to. Good work, Noreen.
November 30th, 2006 at 4:23 pm
We added a comment to the article as follows:
(citypaper@textgenie.com), NYC 11/30/2006 - 2:17pm
An excellent article, giving an unsually clear and even handed review of a debate that is not widely covered in the media, because the scientists in tehe field actively fight reexamination of their theory, an attitude which the comments of John Moore, Nancy Padian and other spokesmen in the article betray. The Charlotte City Paper and reporter should be congratulated for bringing such level headed coverage to their readers. This is one issue in science where the critics have established that there are very serious problems with the conventional wisdom, and with lives at stake it is depolorable that scientists should resist public review. As Professor Bauer points out, the points made in defense quoted in the article include many which are wrong, especially Nancy Padian’s attempt at refuting her own study, which showed that heterosexual transmission of AIDS through sex is far too weak to sustain any epdiemic, let alone a world wide pandemic. Readers who have been alerted by this article to the possibility that standard medicine is wrong in HIV/AIDS will want to visit Peter Duesberg’s site, Virusmyth and the two most active science blogs, Barnesworld You Bet Your Life and New AIDS Review for more information.
November 30th, 2006 at 5:08 pm
I concur with Dan. Thank you, Noreen. You are indeed courageous and articulate.
I’m curious as to why this reporter chose this topic. Were you the instigator ;-)?
Kevin
November 30th, 2006 at 5:10 pm
This is a good article, and I, too, commend Noreen for being willing to share her story.
It gives me no pleasure to bring up Christine Maggiore’s loss, but in the interest of truth-seeking, I can’t let this go without comment:
“The only big blot on the page is the inevitable paragraph on Christine Maggiore reporting that her daughter Eliza died from an “AIDS related” illness, which of course as anyone who is familiar with the case knows is not true, whatever the incompetent and politically influenced coroner might have announced (she died of allergy to a common antibiotic).”
To call the coroner incompetent without any evidence, TS, is potentially defamatory. On what do you base this claim? On your disagreement with the report’s conclusions? I have read the coroner’s report, as well as Al-Bayati’s response to it. Ask yourself, which of these is potentially biased? Al-Bayati was paid by the decedent’s mother, expressly because she wanted a different outcome. The coroner was paid by the government, and unless someone out there can demonstrate receipt of money from the AIDS establishment to cover something up, the coroner doesn’t have any clear motive to fabricate and lie.
Stating that little Eliza died of an allergy to a common antibiotic is (like so many of Chris Noble’s words) evidence of belief-protective behavior, making a quasi-religious construct to explain the unacceptable. (The leader dies, therefore the leader obviously didn’t die, but, rather, was hidden in a cave/well/heaven to return again someday.) It’s hard to die of an amoxicillin overdose, and even rarer to die of an allergy. Amoxicillin-related deaths are so rare that they almost always generate case reports in the literature. Even if they weren’t, Eliza died 24 hr after the first dose! This is far too late to be an acute response, and far, far too early to be anything else. It is far too early to explain any of the pathology that Al-Bayati ascribes to it.
So Al-Bayati brings in an infection–human parvovirus B19–as deus ex machina. This is what causes the “fifth disease,” that nasty itchy rash most children get. Most people have had it. But Eliza didn’t have any rash. Let’s just assume she had the fifth disease: would it have caused immune suppression, anemia, as al-Bayati claims? Maybe, but only after several months, and only if she was otherwise sick.
Eliza’s pathology, from the severely undersized thymus to the encephalitic lesions in the brain; from her shockingly low size and weight (which preceeded by YEARS any exposure to HPV b19 or amoxicillin) to the disease state of her lungs…it all does point to what is called “pediatric AIDS.” Although, like al-Bayati, I don’t give much credence to p24 staining in the brain (unless it’s done, preferably by me, and with appropriate controls), especially as a sole diagnostic method…it would seem, in concert with all else, to be indicative of HIV.
Since better and more specific HIV tests are absent in this case, we’ll never know exactly why Eliza died. Perhaps one or more of the childhood diseases her parents didn’t see fit to inoculate her against could have contributed. Or perhaps HIV was the main contributor. I don’t know for sure…and neither do any of you. But there are some things that can probably be ruled out with near-certainty, and those include fifth disease and amoxicillin toxicity.
TS has chosen between the coroner/coroner’s team and al-Bayati based not on medical knowledge, but on what he wants to believe. TS, how does this benefit the truth?
November 30th, 2006 at 5:44 pm
Guys and girls, I am just one of many warriors in this campaign, no more special or courageous than others. If we all stick together we can accomplish much. I have not had to suffer through personal loss like Christine and her family.
If I’m not mistaken, Peter Duesberg and Harvey Bialy in Nature, stated that HIV is harmless in the laboratory then how can it cause harm to humans? It is unfortunate about Liza Jane and the pain that this family has had to endure, nevertheless, how can a rational, thinking person attibute her death to HIV?
How the above story came about was I saw the first AIDS article in Africa that Greg had written and I gave him a call. He came to the house twice and was very attentive and I gave him a stack of documents. I had a good feeling about him that he would be fair and not “trash” me so to speak, courtersy and respect is probably more common in the South than in larger cities.
November 30th, 2006 at 5:51 pm
Oh sure, Martel, the child died suddenly of HIV.
The way you accuse Christine and Al-Bayati of bias is defamatory, we merely rated the coroner incompetent at thinking.
If you cannot see that he had his head screwed on backwards after he realized that HIV∫AIDS politics were involved, or that the correct diagnosis was classic allergic overreaction with individual variation, we would like to know what other difficulties you have in believing what we say.
Do you, for instance, believe that HIV causes immune dysfunction and eventually death after as long as twenty years in otherwise healthy people, and that it can be transmitted between man and woman easily enough to cause a worldwide pandemic?
November 30th, 2006 at 7:22 pm
Martel
I will not pass judgment on you, as this is the first thing of yours that I have read. Eliza’s CD4+ cell count was too high to for her death to be classified as an AIDS related death.
You, and the AIDS establishment, are not allowed to “win” every time. Eliza’s case does not fit into the AIDS definition. It is time for AIDS Inc. to admit they were wrong, and to leave Christine alone. I do not expect that to happen, however. The “people” I work with hate this woman, and all other dissidents. They do not care if they are right or wrong, as long as they can make a dissident look bad. Call Dr. John P Moore. He might not admit this, but he will demonstrate.
GS
November 30th, 2006 at 7:48 pm
Martel, if I’m not mistaken, the report you refer to is the coroner’s *second* autopsy, the one he performed after it came to his attention that Christine is a prominent dissident. If Eliza Jane’s condition was noticeably “pediatric AIDS,” why didn’t he come to this conclusion in his first report?
November 30th, 2006 at 8:39 pm
?I will not pass judgment on you, as this is the first thing of yours that I have read. Eliza’s CD4+ cell count was too high to for her death to be classified as an AIDS related death.
Thanks GS, the poor little tot was in robust health, not immune compromised, not even HIV+, forgot about that, probably because the case has always been so obvious to us anyway, and it hasn’t ever seemed worth discussing, since it lacked any mystery to solve, except the serious issue of how maliciously supportive of their untruthworthy leaders the average dope can be.
However, Dean Esmay posted in his excellent blog as follows after the LA Times biased report appeared in its news columns and Martel might like to go there for the Comments:
Click On Eliza Jane for the following and more:
On Eliza Jane
Dean
The following letter was recently submitted to the Los Angeles Times, which they have so far not even responded to:
The Silence of The LA Times
Dear Sirs,
This is in response to the story you published yesterday regarding the death of the daughter of Christine Maggiore and Robin Scovill.
In order to have a diagnosis of ‘aids related pneumonia’, two conditions must be met. The patient must be HIV antibody positive, and there must be a clinical pneumonia. Whether Eliza Jane was in fact Ab+ is information that neither the LA Times nor the coroner’s office has as yet made public. However, according to *all* reports it is acknowledged the child suffered none of the textbook symptoms of pneumonia, and had previously been in excellent health for several years. Thus the crucial second condition appears completely unsatisfied. (A post mortem finding of PCP in the lungs means nothing since it is 100% ubiquitous in human beings). Thus we are left to ponder the only significant fact, and it is one of omission, in your story. On what basis did the coroner conclude the child died of ‘AIDS related pneumonia’?
After more than 20 years of attempting to get straight answers about HIV/AIDS from so-called authorities, we are less than sanguine that this latest, simple query will be satisfactorily answered.
Sincerely,
Prof. Peter H. Duesberg
Dept of Molecular and Cell Biology
Univ. of California, Berkeley
Dr. Harvey Bialy
Resident scholar
Institute of Biotechnology
Autonomous National University of Mexico
Cuernavaca, Mexico
I myself remain surprised that what always looked like a case of anaphylactic shock from amoxicillin got diagnosed postmortem as pneumonia despite a complete lack of any pneumonia symptoms (unless you count low-grade fever and the sniffles). But I’m only mildly surprised–Maggiore is a political target after all, and people who not long ago were calling her a liar and saying she doesn’t even carry HIV are now calling her a murderer, and her friends accessories.
Slander is a hobby for some folks, obviously. Rather than respect the right of informed people to disagree in good faith, lash out with hatred instead. (No, that’s not everybody, but yeesh.) Scovill tells me they have serious concerns about the medical examiner’s report and are consulting an independent pathologist and will have more to say on that publicly in the next few weeks.
I am still working on getting a copy of the medical examiner’s report from LA County. I continue to maintain that if these parents or doctors are lying and the kid was showing symptoms that were ignored then I hope they’re punished. But knowing what we know, even from the half-assed reporting of the LA Times, I find myself doubtful.
* Update * Due to heavy interest I have moved this thread up near the top again. I have now corresponded with four people with PhDs in biology who are glad to see this being discussed in public and are themselves very skeptical of the report from the LA Times. This doesn’t prove anything–objective reality is not determined by the vote of a majority of PhDs–but I emphasize this point to allay the fears of anyone who thinks this is crackpot wingnuttery. Since starting this I have made a point to only listen to people with at least a PhD in biology or an MD when I ask questions. For whatever that’s worth.
Related Posts (on one page):
1. Pseudoscientific Rubbish from the L.A. County Coroner–and Bloggers
2. On The Radio…
3. From the Mailbag: What Really Happened to Eliza Jane?
4. On Eliza Jane
5. Other AIDS News
6. AIDS News
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maor (mail):
It seems to me that it would make more sense asking the coroner or the county how the conclusion was reached. I mean, if you ask an editor “On what basis did the coroner conclude the child died of ‘AIDS related pneumonia’?”, he has a pretty good reason to say “How the hell should I know?”.
9.28.2005 10:25am
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Dean Esmay:
I would presume that the medical examiner’s report would clearly show why they drew whatever conclusions they did. Also, according to Scovill, the LA Times themselves left out crucial information that was in that report in their attack piece.
In any case, I’ve written the coroner’s office and am awaiting a response.
9.28.2005 2:09pm
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Hank Barnes (mail):
Shoddy journalism. The basis for the coroner’s opinion was not contained in the story. That means it wasn’t asked (bad journalism) or the answer was not reported (bad journalism).
Par for the course with this mysterious, hyped disease.
Barnes, Hank
9.28.2005 2:17pm
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daf9:
The coroner may clearly state on what grounds they drew their conclusions - the question is how much medical training one would need to evaluate that conclusion. And even among qualified professionals there’s a good chance you will find different opinions on the relative significance of one finding over another - if not for differing medical opinions where would lawyers find the fodder for malpractise suits? But I still think the media and authorities should back off. These people lost their daughter. Perhaps in hindsight a different medical treatment might have saved her life but there will never be any way of knowing that for certain and in any case, it would appear that these parents acted with the best of intentions.
Dale
9.28.2005 2:24pm
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Hank Barnes (mail):
Can’t really disagree, Dale.
However, my criticsm of the article exclusively concerns the assertion that the girl died from “AIDS-related pneumonia,” without stating the underlying factual support. You don’t need an expert for that. “AIDS-related pneumonia” is a specific disease, that requires the presence of HIV.
Conversely, if there is no HIV, there is no “AIDS-related pneumnia.” The story is silent on whether or not HIV was detected. So, hopefully, the autopsy report can back this up, or there is a terrible injustice being done to this grieving family.
Hank Barnes
9.28.2005 5:23pm
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caltechgirl (www):
Kudos to the Times for actually printing that letter. I’d love to see an actual response, but I’m guessing we won’t.
9.28.2005 5:26pm
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Harvey Bialy (www):
My dear ‘caltechgal’,
May I inquire as to what letter you are referring?
(Maybe you are thinking of some of the transdimensional material that appears in bialystocker.net.)
And may I also inquire as to your straight-ahead opine regarding the true underlying motives for the publication by the LA Times of a story lacking any substance but containing much potential slander?
Harvey
9.28.2005 5:38pm
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caltechgirl (www):
Oops. That’s what I get for not previewing. That should have said kudos IF they actually PRINT the letter….I’ve got a cold and my head is a little sideways from the meds.
I want to know the truth, Harvey. I want to know what happened to EJ, whether she had HIV or not….
etc etc
The whole case is a classic example of how insufficient smarts applied to a straightforward problem lead to ever expanding comment and analysis while sufficient intelligence leads to rductionism and simplicity, and avoids the giant waste of time and life which entangles the insufficiently competent brains that litter the blogscape and the LA coroners office.
November 30th, 2006 at 9:54 pm
As I noted in my article in LA City Beat, EJ’s total lymphocyte count was high, and that meets WHO’s standard of an intact immune system in the absence of CD4 measuring technologies.
Indeed, AIDS establishment does not play fair. I don’t think it is known yet what EJ died of, but I also have to say that after experiences in my own life, including with my own mother, death is not something that comes built like an IKEA cabinet. Death is death, and only those who have lost somebody can ever know how shockingly mysterious it is. I can attest to one truth and that is that a person can be alive one moment, AND fully healthy, and die the next, for no reason that any coroner can explain. This is what happened to my mother. So fast she was still on her feet when they found her, having just left me a phone message, all things seeming normal, but they were not normal and she died. Not a stroke, not a heart attack.
Anybody who plays AIDS poker with that little girl’s death or the love that was and is between her and her family is a monster. One day, death will show you and teach you–all that you, in life, were too frightened to understand, about life itself, about love, about decency and indeed about death. All of you who have exploited EJ’s death to torture her family are wrong in the broadest sense of the word “wrong.” You cannot be right, even if Jesus Christ come down off the cross with a blazingly positive WB. You are wrong because you crossed the line of what it means to be human, to have mercy.
November 30th, 2006 at 10:28 pm
Thank you Celia!
This issue needs to be put away - in a place far far away.
GS
November 30th, 2006 at 11:04 pm
Celia,
hear, hear!
December 1st, 2006 at 1:05 am
There are some recent articles posted on NotAIDS! regarding the toxicity of AIDS drugs and the fabrication by UNAIDS of HIV/AIDS statistics in India and Africa.
I am inspired by all of the scientists, writers, and lay people who have the courage to question the establishment.
It is going on one year that I was handed the “death sentence” of a poz test result. Without any ARVs or any other AIDS drugs, I remain healthy, am at a healthy weight (adjusted for the winter;-)- my “viral load” remains steady around 20k and my CD4 t-cell count is at 750, a couple of hundred higher than when first getting the hiv test.
December 1st, 2006 at 10:49 am
Bravo Kirk!
This year, I’ve met several HIV+ folks who –through their own diligence — have investigated and rejected the standard viral boondoggle paradigm that promotes fear and highly toxic drugs at the expense of good health.
I don’t know if you live in California, but Dr. Peter Duesberg is speaking tonight at a conference.
May you continue to enjoy good health!
December 1st, 2006 at 11:18 am
LRC Conference says its $ 150.00 to register.
Does that mean it will cost $ 150.00 to hear Duesberg speak ?
December 1st, 2006 at 11:21 am
Is it wrong that he should get funds?
December 1st, 2006 at 11:48 am
No, pat, Peter Duesberg can have all the funds grantable to him.
My point is: will my going to the presentation mean $ 150.00
out of pocket. If it does I may not go as I have the powerpoint presentation on my computer and I have no intent on attending the all day conference.
December 1st, 2006 at 11:56 am
150 bucks is worth considering, sure. I just wish I had the opportunity to hear him speak and maybe even ask him a few questions in person and give him some money while I’m at it for his cancer research. Powerpoints don’t talk back and lack body language.
December 1st, 2006 at 12:53 pm
I am somewhat taken aback by the comments from Celia Farber, TS, and others in response to my words about EJ. I am called a monster, a learing, cynical poker player at the table of other’s suffering. It is implied that I, unlike every other human being alive, have never experienced the death of a loved one. And why? Because I don’t claim to know what caused Ms. Maggiore’s daughters death and am willing to say so. As macabre as it may sound, death is and always has been the greatest teacher for medicine. It is only by examining cases, with no bias as regards the outcome and influenced only by the partiality imparted by science and logic, that medicine has progressed to the point where most children do not die in their first year of life, where the human life span has been doubled in the last century. These “case studies” represent loved ones to other human beings, people who deserve respect. If it is truly subhuman to seek knowledge from another human’s death, then let us dispense with all medical science forthwith.
I will not go into the legal definitions of defamation, nor will I examine whether a charge of bias or a charge of professional incompetence and political manipulation in the workplace is more likely to be legally actionable.
But I will look at the truth. Says TS,
” The way you accuse Christine and Al-Bayati of bias is defamatory, we merely rated the coroner incompetent at thinking.”
Is this true? Is Ms. Maggiore, who has made an assault on HIV=AIDs a major part of her life, truly impartial here? Is al-Bayati, himself an HIV=AIDS denialist and practitioner of alternative AIDS medicine, as well as someone paid to find an alternative explanation from the coroner’s, also impartial? For that matter, is the coroner impartial? I sure hope not! The coroner should come up with a best explanation, as biased as possible based upon his knowledge of medicine and pathology! When the coroner discovered that Ms. Maggiore was HIV+, a rather muddled and confusing case suddenly became clear to him…again, based upon the compendium of medical knowledge regarding pediatric AIDS.
So we could make the case that all parties here have their biases. But there is only one argument for the coroner’s incompetence, and it is weak: that the child’s death was not initially attributed to pediatric AIDS. I’m not going out on a limb when I suggest that few coroners alive would initially suspect this: there are vanishingly few cases of pediatric AIDS deaths (although there are more than deaths involving anaphylactic shock after amoxicillin treatment), and nearly all of them involve infants from destitute backgrounds whose mothers were injecting drug users (hint to all of my detractors: here’s where you accuse me of racism for telling the truth). There was no good reason to suspect that white, affluent Eliza-Jane was HIV positive.
I fully appreciate that Eliza’s pneumonia was not typical, and, like most of you, I wonder if and how it caused her death. But as unconvinced as I am of pneumonia as the death-causing agent, going to amoxicillin shock and parvovirus infection is, as I said before, the act of a believer, not a rational investigator, especially since the timing is all wrong: amoxicillin allergy would cause a severe reaction within minutes, not only after 24 hours of treatment.
As for the assertion that EJ was a rosy picture of health prior to taking amoxicillin, that is simply wrong. This little girl was so underweight that almost any pediatrician would have begun tests to find the cause soon after her first birthday, if not before. Her brain had been ravaged by encephalitis, a condition that develops not within 24 hours, nor even usually within 3 weeks, but over a period of months or years. Her thymus was well under half the normal weight, even for her small size.
Celia Farber is correct to note that the lymphocyte count was too high for a diagnosis of AIDS…on the basis of T-cell numbers alone. Unfortunately, the lymphocyte count also spells fatal problems for al-Bayati’s assertions, which depend on anemia or immune suppression caused, according to his minority report, by amoxicillin and parvovirus infection.
So where do I stand? Where I have always stood: that we don’t know what caused Eliza-Jane’s death. But I do suspect that a parvovirus wasn’t involved, and there is also scant evidence for, and much evidence against, amoxicillin shock.
Call me a monster, but this case is good evidence that, while HIV may not cause every case of AIDS as many define it, while the whole field is following pipe dreams and wasting money, while there may be many unknowns that will change our view of HIV and AIDS in the coming decades, we completely ignore the collective knowledge of medicine–flawed as it is–to, occasionally, sadly, tragically, our own peril, and that of those we love. I don’t judge, I mourn the loss of all human life, and I resolve to continue my own work in getting to the bottom of whatever HIV may be.
December 1st, 2006 at 1:07 pm
Even YOU McK cannot be so out of it as to ask if it costs $150 to attend a conferecne that costs $150 to attend.
I did not notice any part of the advertisement saying “Special: Attend The Duesberg lecture for $25 only or something similar.
And are you some sort of inner circle denialist deviant that YOU have a powerpoint presentation that has only been promised?
December 1st, 2006 at 1:40 pm
Let’s talk about bias, Martel…
Is Ms. Maggiore, who has made an assault on HIV=AIDs a major part of her life, truly impartial here?
“made an assault on HIV=AIDS”. That’s your view, and it reeks of bias. How about this? She’s challenging the prevailing medical view that HIV=AIDS. It doesn’t sound biased, and we’ve taken the implied violence of the word “assault” out.
al-Bayati, himself an HIV=AIDS denialist
Is calling him a “denialist” not a bias? Once again, he openly challenges the prevailing medical view that HIV=AIDS. Using the word “denialist” shows YOUR bias.
December 1st, 2006 at 1:44 pm
We assume that the above note is from the Beelzebub phenomenon and we apologize for its rude tone.
As for Martel, is “Oh shut up” a scientific response? If not, how does one deal with the inability to accept what is in front of one’s nose? And the distortion of facts? Perhaps NHMchase is right to suggest further discussion is now moot. Martel is Noble in another guise.
We apologize for our rude tone.
December 1st, 2006 at 2:36 pm
Dan,
Point well taken. My language was too strong. I was trying to show the strength of Ms. Maggiore’s questioning, which in an earlier and less culturally-sensitive time (i.e. mine) might have been called a “crusade.” Yes, too much violence implied; but her challenge is indeed strong and I do admire her for it, however much I disagree with some aspects of it. For al-Bayati, “denialist” was the word; I use this word just as I use the word “establishment” to refer to the HIV=AIDS people. So, yes, I’m biased: in favor of NHM’s fence.
But let’s change my biased language to yours, which is admirably more neutral. Ms. Maggiore and al-Bayati still have an interest in the outcome, because if EJ has any AIDS illnesses, or even if she is HIV+, much of their belief system is challenged.
As for TS, I’m sorry to read your, “Oh, shut up.” It is your prerogative to delete anything I write if you don’t like it. But EJ’s death has been made a matter for public discussion by Christine Maggiore herself, via her website, her public statements, her release of the counter-opinion by al-Bayati, and so on.
CN, to whom you compare me, is repeatedly accused of refusing to answer specific questions. If you could give me an example of my alleged “inability to accept” the obvious, I would show my difference from CN and respond. Which of my stances, specifically, do you challenge:
1) that acute amoxicillin toxicity occurs within seconds or minutes of first dose, and that EJ was thus an unlikely victim of drug reaction?
2) that long-term toxicity would take weeks or months to produce any symptoms exhibited by EJ?
3) that parvovirus infection is similarly unlikely to cause any of the pathology reported in the absence of major underlying medical problems?
4) that EJ was disturbingly underweight, and had been so since the first year of life?
5) that any student of pediatrics, presented with a toddler in the third centile by weight and height, would say, “failure to thrive,” and order a mountain of diagnostics?
6) that EJ displayed perivascular cuffing in the thalamus and hippocampus, as well as microglial nodules and multinucleate giant cells, all characteristic of encephalitis, and none able to be explained by amoxicillin or parvovirus infection?
7) that al-Bayati’s report is self-contradictory regarding anemia, immune suppression, and the lymphocyte counts?
I wouldn’t be commenting on this at all, TS, if it weren’t in the article, and if you hadn’t specifically brought it up. But it is an extremely important case to me because I can’t explain away Eliza-Jane’s tragically untimely death from the rethinker (denialist, truth-seeking, whatever I should call it) point of view. The number of children in this country who are born into upper-class families and breastfed by untreated but healthy and non-drug-abusing HIV+ mothers, children who are neither tested nor treated for HIV…that number is so low that you could probably count it on two hands. Perhaps EJ is the only one. That, when she died, she displayed multiple symptoms of what the (dirty, corrupt, whatever you want to call it) establishment calls pediatric AIDS is a very, very, strange coincidence. Do I necessarily believe she died of pediatric AIDS? No, I never said that. It just looks an awful lot like it, enough to explain why so many [of those who challenge the prevailing HIV=AIDS hypothesis] are so upset when I point this out.
December 1st, 2006 at 2:43 pm
Martel!!!!
I wasn’t calling YOU a monster. I am so sorry you took it that way and I can see that the mistke was mine in not clarifying: I am terminally livid at OTHERS, in the “media” especially, who weighed in on this, such as Primetime ABC, LA Times, NY Times (worst offenders, John Moore and Nattrass) POZ, (Bob Lederer) and on the blogospshere…”Orac,” Trent McBride, (Catallarchy) and that writer whose name escapes me now, at National Review Online…and a whole slew of libertarians at REASON’s blog…and on and on and on. I have been and always will be disgusted at THEM, for how they treated this family. I don’t think a normal MAN, forgive me, behave this way, toward a grieving mother.
I am not simply furious at anybody who discusses this case. I hold in disdain those who have exploited it in an attempt to make themselves appear cleaner, purer, holier. And my point is you cannot BE holy or good if you are debasing this family and making their daughter a kind of universal AIDS daughter belonging to all of us… torn apart and autopsied and re-autopsied and invaded at every level in the media and elsewhere for all eternity.
YES, I wrote about it too. My story was an attempt to say SLOW DOWN. We do not KNOW. Do not use THIS CHILD or THIS CASE to prove the HIV theory is correct 22 years later.
I hope you accept my clarification and apology.
December 1st, 2006 at 3:07 pm
Celia,
Thank you, and sorry I misinterpreted your words so!
I’m also sorry to be discussing anyone’s death at all, but again, from a medical perspective, EJ’s case is quite possibly unique, for the reasons I outlined above.
Her death, in all its detailed sadness, is also in the public sphere, largely because her family’s conviction and incredible fortitude led them to place it there. I admire them for their stand.
In my opinion, the dead are done the ultimate disservice when we become silent about them. Certainly, Ms. Maggiore will not fall silent about her daughter.
However, given the outcry here against my arguments, I will follow TS’s advice and shut my mouth here, anyway. I am rather new to NAR (posting, anyway), and I recognize that sensibilities often make more sense than my ancient and perhaps too-unsociable mind may always comprehend!
December 1st, 2006 at 3:25 pm
Martel,
I hope you stay, and I hope you do not shut your mouth. I see your points and the fact is I have staked my life on the belief that above all else one must question, especially one’s own beliefs, etc. That goes for me too and that goes for this ghastly heartbreaking situation with EJ. I like to think I am looking at it with eyes wide open. And though I see what you mean, from a frog’s eye view, what about the bird’s eye view, the broader lens:
SO MUCH is off base and dissonant about the paradigm when one tries to make the Maggiore/Scovill family fit the poster lynching of “denialists.”
1. Christine tested, positive, indeterminate, negative, and positive again…not sure how many times each.
2. She’s been healthy and “living with HIV” for at least 17 years, (I think?) if in fact she can be said to be “infected,” or indeed if we agree upon what “infection” with HIV means…
3. Her husband with whom she’s had unprotected sex for something like 12 years is negative.
4. Their son Charlie is negative, healthy.
5. As far as I know none of us yet know whether EJ was positive. We do know that Christine and Robin had to SUE Quest diagnostics to attempt to get their daughter’s testing documents and that something is very tortured and strange about that whole aspect. What is going On here? This is not normal. There are disturbing fevers and agendas and fears in the air. Have been since the beginning. Not a good atmosphere for “truth.”
6. At the hospital the night EJ died, she was NOT diagnosed with pneumonia (the first diagnosis was “sepsis”) and upon autopsy no signs of AIDS were seen. Coroners reported that “AIDS is so obvious,” when you do an autopsy that HIV tests are not necessary. EJ, by contrast, was a case that mystifed them and they came up with no cause of death until many month’s later, as has been noted, when the whole thing was re-examined by Coroner James Ribe, and it became known that Christine was a dissident etc.
I would like to re-post my article here, back shortly..
December 1st, 2006 at 3:39 pm
What about the broader view?
I think that is so much of what is trying to be acheived in this blog.
How distorted do things get when we look at them through an HIV/AIDS lens?
How many ideas, questions and concepts do we end up abandoning or turning a blind eye to as we’re trying to force illnesses and test results to fit into a hypothesis rife with enigmas, unanswered questions and mysteries?
December 1st, 2006 at 3:58 pm
And really shouldn’t the award go to Lew Rockwell for amazing courage in the face of a mountain of reasons to simply avoid publicizing Prof. Duesberg’s critique any more than he already has by publishing Miller, Culshaw, Brown and Bialy?
December 1st, 2006 at 4:04 pm
And are you some sort of inner circle denialist deviant that YOU have a powerpoint presentation that has only been promised?
I have a power point presentation of twenty-thirty slides of a presentation by Duesberg speaking to a Rotary club.
If you’re nice to me, I send the missing slides that Duesberg deleted for this new talk.
Isn’t the internet wonderful. And besides that, yes, I’m cheap.
McK
December 1st, 2006 at 4:09 pm
By the way, if you like I’ll email the powerpoint presentation by Duesberg for a price. The last slide is a bottle of an AZT bottle.
December 1st, 2006 at 4:26 pm
Martel wrote:
…amoxicillin allergy would cause a severe reaction within minutes, not only after 24 hours of treatment.
This is simply not true.
As a child, I developed a mild allergy to amoxicillin the first time it was given to me. It presented as a widespread rash about a week into treatment.
The second time I was given amoxicillin, while in the hospital, I had a more severe reaction (throat-swelling, rapid breathing, etc) but that reaction occurred several hours into treatment (after two doses, I think; it’s been a while). Regardless, allergic responses can vary according to the individual and can even occur several days after stopping the medication. You are right to say that anaphylactic shock is almost always within a few hours; however, heart problems can manifest even after the antibiotic has been discontinued:
Acute coronary syndrome due to amoxicillin allergy
If I’m not mistaken, Eliza Jane was said to have died from cardiac arrest, according to Dr. al-Bayati’s report. That is certainly plausible, even if it is a rare outcome.
Kevin
December 1st, 2006 at 4:39 pm
Martel: I can see your point that most coroners probably would not deduce EJ died of pediatric AIDS and I thought about that after I posted. But if you’ve been to the site dedicated to EJ then you may have come across this:
http://www.justiceforej.com/ribeflipflops.html
What do you think of the information? Is it only a smear campaign or is Ribe really incompetent or at least unreliable?
I am going to go out on a limb here and say that from where I stand I agree with you, Martel, that EJ most likely did not die from an amoxicillin reaction or parvovirus infection. In fact, I was disappointed by al-Bayati’s report.
I question that her death was due to her parents’ refusal to vaccinate her, but I would have to hear more of an argument.
Now, I know Christine has gone through hell and I don’t really know much beyond the basics about nutrition, but I have wondered since this tragedy began if Christine’s vegetarian diet (I assume this is what she is by what I have read, anyone correct me if I’m wrong)– had ANY role in EJ’s health.
As noble as being a vegetarian is, from the information I have gathered, adhering to a the diet while nursing or in the early stages of life is controversial. I hope I haven’t aroused the hatred of anyone, but I couldn’t get the idea out of my head that possibly EJ was deficient in some way(s) if Christine had her on a vegetarian diet as well.
I am NOT making the case that Christine is responsible for her daughter’s death (I’m sure she meant only the best for her) and I don’t want to get into a drawn-out, convoluted debate about vegetarianism. But if EJ was breastfed and had a vegetarian diet after she was weaned then not everyone would agree that was a good idea. I just thought it might be an alternative explanation to “allergic reaction” and “pediatric AIDS.”
December 1st, 2006 at 4:49 pm
Martel, humans would be more healthy if they consumed a more vegeterian diet because only plants contain the most valuable vitmains and mineral salts. Carbohydrates and sugar are digested in the mouth, where as proteins which are mainly come from meats, fish, eggs, etc. are digested in the stomach and if over-eaten, common in the American diet, result in putrefication. Adding the fact that the heating or over-cooking of foods destroys these critical elements.
Purtification in the colon leads to a whole host of ailments and disease when not removed. Proteins can be obtained by eating beans, nuts, etc. Milk is considered a protective food too.
December 1st, 2006 at 4:54 pm
I should have addressed the above to AF.
December 1st, 2006 at 6:45 pm
My point is: will my going to the presentation mean $ 150.00
out of pocket. If it does I may not go as I have the powerpoint presentation on my computer and I have no intent on attending the all day conference.
TS, I don’t think this clarification of the question whether it costs $150 to attend a conference that costs $150 can be answered too rudely.
“I have a powerpoint and I have no intention of attending the all day conference”
What the F.. does that mean? “I may not want to pay to attend, cuz I don’t intend to attend anyway - and besides I’ve already got the powerpoint presentation, which is the part I do want to attend”, or what??
Here’s a solution to MCK’s dilemma that’ll definitely make the world a much more logical place:
DON’T ATTEND!!
December 1st, 2006 at 9:42 pm
The true “denialists” are the AIDS establishment - they deny the scientific data staring them in the face, and then fabricate their own interpretation that suits their agenda. What can one expect from the AIDS Establishment but lies to keep them in business. Remember Ryan White? His death was reported as caused by AIDS related complications - in Duesberg’s book, Bryan Ellison got the actual cause from the Hemophelia Foundation: internal bleeding and liver failure - “authentic” AIDS symptoms? I think not!
December 1st, 2006 at 9:52 pm
pat, thank you.
You seem to have understood my concerns in my first comment. One was the cost of registration re:the full conference of 10 speakers over the two days and the other was whether that meant if one only wanted to hear Dr. Duesberg, one would have been required to pay the full $ 150.00 registration fee.
Since, there are a few other individuals living in the SF Bay area that might have been interested, I thought it wasn’t an unreasonable question to ask that early in the morning.
If anyone else had read the questions without prejudice, they may have considered answering for my benefit and the others here who were given late notice of the talk by Peter Duesberg.
However, the comments following devolved to narrow minded idiocy. I apologize for any part I had in those exchanges.
December 2nd, 2006 at 1:44 am
If anyone else had read the questions without prejudice, they may have considered answering for my benefit and the others here who were given late notice of the talk by Peter Duesberg.
Remarkably true, McK, your enquiry was very clear we thought, how odd that it should have been misunderstood in some mysterious way. Shows that you have to write things from three different angles on the Web to be absolutely sure they look the same to all, perhaps. Still very odd to be misunderstood by one of the most attentive, enlightened and distinguished posters here.
Of course one may ask if to attend a slice of the conference need incur the cost of the whole. No idea how it was misunderstood even now.
So much for communication on the Web without editing. Risky business unless everyone does a double take before they object to something.
However, given the outcry here against my arguments, I will follow TS’s advice and shut my mouth here, anyway. I am rather new to NAR (posting, anyway), and I recognize that sensibilities often make more sense than my ancient and perhaps too-unsociable mind may always comprehend!
Martel, we apologize for our automatic dismissal of your carefully wrought thoughtful extended comment on Eliza Jane’s death. We can only plead that it seems to us that past a certain point, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it is probably a duck unless there is strong evidence otherwise.
Endless analysis seems to be typically possible on the basis of finding small exceptions to the rule one is applying in coming to a judgement about something, and one can go on forever finding flaws in a verdict and something to be said on the other side of an issue. In the end one tends to act just like the HIV∫AIDS fellow travelers who come to a decision to agree with the conventional wisdom even though they haven’t looked into it very far. if everything major points to a conclusion and there are good reasons for the exceptions - in this case every individual varies in their reaction to some foreign subsrance it seems clear - then you come to a conclusion and dont want to discuss it further.
But who’s to say you are not right? Only someone who is sure of every detail and fact, and in this area it is hard to be that certain. But in our opinion the indications all point firmly towards amoxycillin poisoning and a fatal systemic reaction of the kind that occurs in some cases and is widely known, with any differences form the norm you mention accounted for by indivudal variation.
You’re welcome to suspect something else, but you have to have a fairly big reason to reopen the case.
Anyhow it is not for us to say what you should debate and we didn’t mean to discourage thoughtful and searching comment which is what we want here on the basic topic of the validity of HIV∫AIDS, if only to nudge the fence sitters off the fence before they do damage to themselves as well as discourage others from coming to a firm conclusion.
One hesitates to recommend it but perhaps the early posts of this long winded blog might help you to make up your mind. Having written them we have no doubt whatsoever that HIV∫AIDS is a disgraceful error and one which has exposed scientists as all too human in their motivations.
However, you should read Harvey Bialy and Peter Duesberg and Celia Farber to get a really clear picture of how one sided the argument really is, pace Chris Noble, Richard Jefferys and other professional defenders of the faith. It is not necessary to disentangle every knot they tie in this complex argument tree, it is just necessary to get a clear picture of the big branches to see which way up the tree is standing.
December 3rd, 2006 at 9:53 pm
Thanks again, TS, for so magnanimously allowing discussion here: this environment is rare and appreciated.
Due to your encouragement, I would also like to respond to Celia, AF, GS, and Kevin before I quit this topic completely.
AF, your comments on vegetarian children are interesting, although I lean towards doubting whether they’re relevant in this case. But who knows? A vegetarian diet is probably healthier for most people, but I’m of the old-school opinion that children (with developing brains) need factors that are easiest to derive from animal products. Not that it’s impossible for well-informed pa